Convence me to upgrade

I have used your product to build and maintain our web sites from your first release, and have enthusiastically endorsed your product. I even contacted you all on several occasions to participate in your Beta program. www.radiowavz.com Aground version 9 we started having support issues. It got to the point that we could not even up date our cart system. This cost us money. You can see our history. I know you are a company all on your own now, and have claimed to fix these problems. I would very much like to upgrade and not switch over to the Adobe product. But I need to get the that warm fuzzy feeling about you again. It has been our why to dance with the one who brought you. I have two tickets open that have not been responded to.

This is a user to user forum and most of the people on here are just like you.... users of the product. The owners of the company as well as their support personal do frequent this forum and they do respond to user problems.

What you choose as a development tool depends on your needs and your comfort level.

If you are a hard nose hand coder I would steer you to other products that are more "editor" based. If you are a graphic design person then Fusion is just about the only player on the block for you.

If you are not already a user of Adobe products (the creative suite of products) your cash outlay is going to be gargantuan and if you are not familiar with their product the learning curve is more like Muholland drive rather than the Hollywood freeway.

As far as support.... You will get much faster answers in any user to user forum than you will by contacting a product manufacturer directly. They make their money by developing and selling products. The service/support side is a money loser for them so even with the best of the best out there you are going to have a long wait for any kind of meaningful answer. This is just the way it has always been and probably always will be.

NetO used to have great support. They also used to CHARGE for it too... Many products have gone to a paid support model. Some even have subscription models that cost far more than the original cost of the product. I have run a subscription support organization for over a decade.

I too have been using NOF since the very early versions and have noticed a decline in the level of support or even concern about their product. I still have a paid support voucher that I've neven used because the support desk could not resolve my database related problem. I consider myself an advanced user and incoorporate alot of hand coding for .asp applications. Currently, I'm using NOF version 10 and actually came into my office tonight to order v12 but after reading v12 related posts on this forum, I am concerned about doing that now. I need someone to assure me that v12 is stable and will upgrade from v10 without any issues. Of course, I will back up all my nod files before opening them with v12.

Can someone who's been using NOF and is comfortable with the product tell me that v12 is stable?

Thanks for any input.

12 has been very stable on my Windows7 Home Premium system.

Laurence

I here ya. I have been using Fusion since at least 9 and the instability issues have never been properly addressed. It seemed as if the company(ies) behind the product disappeared. I was glad to hear about an upgrade but had my doubts - and have more still since it seems they are taking a direction toward making it more user-friendly to the less sophisticated developer.

My first question is: how well does it import prev versions. My second is: did you fix all those darn bugs? I get tired of fusion crashing on me a lot. TG it works with Win 7 well enough but it always makes me nervous that one day, I won't figure out a workaround one of those quirky crashes. I have over 400 pages developed for a big client of mine. I need stability and a commitment to those of us who are serious developers too!

My approach to buying version 12 is that I have been using it since Version 3. Sure there are issues along the way - but I want Netobjects to be there for me (not go out of business). Therefore, I like to think that I am part of the family of supporters of Netobject. As such, I purchased the upgrade instantly the evening it came out. I suggest you do the same. We will work out all the issue as we walk down the road together. Besides, try the trial versions of other programs and you will likely uninstall them in an hour. Netobjects is the best. As they say on Cash Cab, "Are you in?"

On 01/02/2011 00:46, Radioman wrote:
> I have used your product to build and maintain our web sites from your
> first release, and have enthusiastically endorsed your product. I even
> contacted you all on several occasions to participate in your Beta
> program. www.radiowavz.com Aground version 9 we started having support
> issues. It got to the point that we could not even up date our cart
> system. This cost us money. You can see our history. I know you are a
> company all on your own now, and have claimed to fix these problems. I
> would very much like to upgrade and not switch over to the Adobe
> product. But I need to get the that warm fuzzy feeling about you again.
> It has been our why to dance with the one who brought you. I have two
> tickets open that have not been responded to.
>
>

To be honest - I'd wait until the first set of bug-fixes for NOF12 is
released (which is apparently going to be fairly soon) - as there are
one or two silly things in the current release of NOF12 that are due to
be fixed...

IMHO, support remains an issue. The forums give great user-to-user
support, but tickets to Netobjects can take some time to be answered.

As to the 'all going down the road together' approach - I guess it
depends on whether you're looking for a ready-to-use 'business tool' -
or a social hobby <g>. Having worked for many years in software
development, I do understand that there's always 'that last bug' - but
over-reliance on beta-testing in user groups is no substitute for a
proper structured in-house approach to testing....

Having said that, there are probably very few alternatives to NOF
- but bugs in the software do cause frustration at times!

Adrian

Radioman,

It's a no brainer (for me anyway). I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag so Fusion is THE product to use. I've tried every bit of web development software there is and there is nothing out there that compares, not even close. I do use one or two of the other bits occasionally but only for minor tasks. NOF is my primary tool and has been for over 15 years. I've upgraded on each release but I also wait for a while, as I do with Windows releases and any other software.

As for support, I like most NOFers, have had major issues with NOF support over the years but to be frank, you probably wont need it as the support from this forum is awesome. There are some amazing people here and to date I have never had a problem go unresolved.

So, do you upgrade - YES. When do you upgrade - that's up to you. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLewis

My approach to buying version 12 is that I have been using it since Version 3. Sure there are issues along the way - but I want Netobjects to be there for me (not go out of business). Therefore, I like to think that I am part of the family of supporters of Netobject. As such, I purchased the upgrade instantly the evening it came out. I suggest you do the same. We will work out all the issue as we walk down the road together. Besides, try the trial versions of other programs and you will likely uninstall them in an hour. Netobjects is the best. As they say on Cash Cab, "Are you in?"

---

I have in the past done just that how ever I have been left out to dry in quite a few situations. I have over the years spent a lot. Simple timely returns to my questions. As a small biz would have been nice. How would it go for you if you were not able to update you site. Or add products.

I know nothing of 12... but what I do know is I built my site back with
version 4 and what made it such a success was these forums...
I had so many questions and all got answered in a very timely manner...
Usually the time to get up from the work and eat a meal the answer was there
when I got back... Now this was many years ago, but I imagine from what
little help I have asked for here lately this is still fantastic support...

I always gave thanks and once again thanks again.. My site has done me very
well....

jlfurniture.com



"Adendum" wrote in message
news:Adendum.4ohel5@no-mx.forums.netobjects.com...


Radioman,

It's a no brainer (for me anyway). I couldn't code my way out of a
paper bag so Fusion is THE product to use. I've tried every bit of web
development software there is and there is nothing out there that
compares, not even close. I do use one or two of the other bits
occasionally but only for minor tasks. NOF is my primary tool and has
been for over 15 years. I've upgraded on each release but I also wait
for a while, as I do with Windows releases and any other software.

As for support, I like most NOFers, have had major issues with NOF
support over the years but to be frank, you probably wont need it as the
support from this forum is awesome. There are some amazing people here
and to date I have never had a problem go unresolved.

So, do you upgrade - YES. When do you upgrade - that's up to you. :)



Paul - 'Aditerum Ltd' (http://www.aditerum.co.uk) and 'AllSortsOfStuff
Ltd' (http://www.allsortsofstuff.net)
NOF11 (in Admin mode!); Vista Premium 64bit; AMD Phenom IIx4 945
Processor 3.00Ghz; 8.0Gb RAM
-wouldn't it be great if there was only a single browser to worry
about!!!-

Are you seriously telling me that they didn't do proper beta testing? Ugh. That will kill a product. And have been in QA as well, I could never understand how they could release a product that crashed. Anyone that knows QA, knows you don't release products that crash that easily (if you release with crashes at all). I am just hoping that they knew better with 12. Did they??

Honestly, I'd be using Dreamweaver if I didn't have a huge site developed with Fusion. It's just too much work to convert it to another app now - and CMS is great for large sites. But the instability worries me a lot. There have been times when I'm afraid I won't be able to save it because multiple times it would crash over and over again even after a Recover, all over some little thing that I'm never sure what it is. And then, I'd be in deep u-know-what with my client. And, let's face it: it's a little clunky.

Kay,

OK, lets start with a list of just 10 products that we use on a daily basis that don't crash. I'll start.....

1. Notepad.exe
2. Errr
3. Umm
4. Hmmmm
5. Humm

OK, I give up, you can go first.

;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adendum

Kay,

OK, lets start with a list of just 10 products that we use on a daily basis that don't crash. I'll start.....

1. Notepad.exe
2. Errr
3. Umm
4. Hmmmm
5. Humm

OK, I give up, you can go first.

;)

---

2. solitaire

On 02/02/2011 21:38, Adendum wrote:
> Kay,
>
> OK, lets start with a list of just 10 products that we use on a daily
> basis that don't crash. I'll start.....
>
> 1. Notepad.exe

2. Paintshop pro
3&4. Open office (includes calc and write)
5. Chrome

Don't think I use anything else on a daily basis.....
apart from WindowsXP - and I'm certainly not going to include _that_ in
the list! <g>

Going back to Kay's point about testing -
I'd have thought that something like the 'Automatic image optimisation
whether you want it or not' bug, and the 'Strange things happen with png
graphics (think it's banner-related)' should have been spotted in-house,
rather than relying on beta-testers to catch them.....

Adrian

On 02/02/2011 22:23, Adrian wrote:
> On 02/02/2011 21:38, Adendum wrote:
>> Kay,
>>
>> OK, lets start with a list of just 10 products that we use on a daily
>> basis that don't crash. I'll start.....
>>
>> 1. Notepad.exe
>
> 2. Paintshop pro
> 3&4. Open office (includes calc and write)
> 5. Chrome
>
> Don't think I use anything else on a daily basis.....
> apart from WindowsXP - and I'm certainly not going to include _that_ in
> the list! <g>
>
> Going back to Kay's point about testing -
> I'd have thought that something like the 'Automatic image optimisation
> whether you want it or not' bug, and the 'Strange things happen with png
> graphics (think it's banner-related)' should have been spotted in-house,
> rather than relying on beta-testers to catch them.....
>
> Adrian

Knew there was another one - Glasseye -
specialist stained-glass CAD & estimating program.
Version 3.1, last updated 2007, just does what it says on the can.

I can already hear the howls about 'NOF is a very complicated program' -
but that's all the more reason to test it properly - and not make the
testing task more complicated than it needs to be though introducing
unnecessary 'gizmos' (like graphics editing).

A reliable FTP feature would be (IMHO) a much more welcome feature....

Adrian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gotFusion

2. solitaire

---

Whoops.... scratch that one off the list :rolleyes:

http://www.fusionkb.com/fusionkb-ftp/solitaire.gif

I really don´t know what this thing is about crashes....
NOF XII doesn´t crash like all the other versions of NOF I used since the last 12 years.

I am just about to make myself very unpopular by saying this, but the problem is not the program, the problem is most of the times the person who sits in front of the computer.

I´m talking with the backup of 12 years of experience with NOF and 6 years beeing a supporter in the biggest NOF communitiy in Germany.
I never had a "Crash" in my whole NOF life.

But it´s actually amazing what the users try to do with and to this program and still expect it to function....
The list of problems is endless, moving your projects not by creating templates, assets that haven´t cleaned up for ages, giant projects with endless galleries, and in the end you mess up everything with happily copy pages and pages from Word.....
This is just a little snippet of what is possible.
And the best of all, by my experience as a supporter, it´s always the program to be blamed.......

On 02/02/2011 22:54, mia wrote:
> I really don´t know what this thing is about crashes....
> NOF XII doesn´t crash like all the other versions of NOF I used since
> the last 12 years.
>
> I am just about to make myself very unpopular by saying this, but the
> problem is not the program, the problem is most of the times the person
> who sits in front of the computer.

Hi Mia
With a program as complex as NOF, there are certain to be many ways to
achieve the same result, and the program's behaviour will be influenced
by what the user asks it to do.

However - I think it is very unfair to lay all or even most of the blame
at the feet of the user.

In my case - the most spectacular NOF12 crash (which actually locked up
the entire windows XP machine to the extent that the only way out was to
pull the mains power from the PC) was as follows :-

- Very small site created in NOF11 (about 7 days before I installed
NOF12 - so I can remember how it was constructed)
- No text copied from Word (and I do get tired of hearing that comment
/excuse over & over again)
- All assets verified
- Export to template
- Open template in NOF12
- While editing text / adding a picture / adding a table cell / ?? -
NOF 12 would show an hourglass, the PC would stop responding to any user
input (mouse, Alt-Ctl-Del etc) and would lock up solid.

Now perhaps I'm the one user whose problems can't be explained away by
'You pasted text from Word.....' - or perhaps not. I can only tell you
_my_ experience.

To solve this particular problem I re-built the little website from
scratch - and now it seems OK.

Not a major issue for such a small site, I wasted half a day checking &
updating video drivers (turned out they were already OK), and suffered
a slight lack of confidence in the shiny new NOF12 that I'd already been
overcharged for (purchased in Euro!).
Luckily, my larger sites, so far, have made the transition without major
problems (other than the fact of NOF gratuitiously re-optimising all new
images for me - which I'll need to go back to and 'undo' when
NOF12.1 comes out with the hoped-for bug-fix.

Still scary though.....

On the 'paste from Word' issue. If it's such a well-known problem, and
is so guaranteed to 'kill' NOF, why on earth doesn't NOF's 'paste'
facility have a filter that looks for 'dangerous' formatting and pops up
a warning box ? Wouldn't that save an awful lot of grief ??
A useful thing for Netobjects to work on, maybe ?

Adrian

Quote:

---

However - I think it is very unfair to lay all or even most of the blame
at the feet of the user.

---

Hi Adrian,

I didn't make this statement out of the blue. It' s based on years of experience working in NOF support.

In your specific case it might have been different. Well, somebody should have had a closer look, maybe.
It would have been a good idea to pass a template to somebody, for a test.

The original reason for my post was that I don't like the fact that users turn up and talk the program down when they have problems to import their messed up projects. (this doesn't go against you.... ;) )
This is why I mentioned my experience in support. Because it's a fact that in most cases the problem is sitting in front of the machine, sry.

I know NOF is not without faults and just like you, I' looking forward to the first update of NOF XII.

And I agree, if somebody's trying to copy Word into the project a virtual slap on the wrist would be a very good idea. :)

Hi,

why don't you just set your standard to "unformatted text" and no problems in the future.
Attachment 792

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mia

Hi Adrian,

I didn't make this statement out of the blue. It' s based on years of experience working in NOF support.

In your specific case it might have been different. Well, somebody should have had a closer look, maybe.
It would have been a good idea to pass a template to somebody, for a test.

The original reason for my post was that I don't like the fact that users turn up and talk the program down when they have problems to import their messed up projects. (this doesn't go against you.... ;) )
This is why I mentioned my experience in support. Because it's a fact that in most cases the problem is sitting in front of the machine, sry.

I know NOF is not without faults and just like you, I' looking forward to the first update of NOF XII.

And I agree, if somebody's trying to copy Word into the project a virtual slap on the wrist would be a very good idea. :)

---

I recognize that may problems related to products are an alchemy of issues.
To outright blame the user or the product would not be fair.
That is why we have customer support. To help mitigate these issues.
I as well have had this product from the beginning, and have (pasttence) been a huge supporter of their products. Until around version 9. Just trying to get some one to answer a question with out a robo response. I cant imagine doing business with a company that you cant even find a phone number. In my business if your customers cant talk to you. You are not in business long. Especially customers who have been with them from the beginning.