Why not use pure CSS? How important is "validation?"

Oh dear mike are you misguided.

NOF and tables are failing you - ok so your site isnt accessable, fair
enough few are but you surely expect your pages to display consisitently
across browsers don't you?

I checked out your site in IE7:

1. On http://ktf-design.com/html/web_design.html your layout is all over the
place. I am sure you don't really want your clients thumbnails to cover the
associated text.

2. http://ktf-design.com/html/product_development.html is left justified
whilst all other pages are centered.

You also haven't any meta tags (same is true for some of your clients
sites!) and there is little content so I'd be real interested to know what
keywords this site ranks so highly for.

It's not my intension to slag someone's efforts off but really please don't
expect me to believe that this site pulls in $16,000 a month!

psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio when it was
built by www.studio-neko.com/

Hi Bikerman

Sorry, but you're looking at the wrong site. The design site is
mid-redesign and no, doesn't bring in anything like that kind of money.
It's catch 22 - if I could earn a full time living at web design, I'd
work harder at making the site 110% - if the site was 110%, I might get
more work... but I'm always busy. Metatags I don't bother with any more,
as neither does google. Content is king.

My main business site is www.albionart.co.uk.

Search terms : concrete copings, concrete coping stones, concrete pier
caps, concrete balustrading, and many more, all make front page (I
assume everywhere, I can only go by the local datacentre) and most at no. 1.

It's a niche market within the building trade in the UK and the website
is moving the company from a small local supplier to one that competes
nationally. That $16k/month is likely to be overshadowed soon as it
looks like it's brought us to the attention of one of the major players,
and we're discussing a contract worth something like $800k.

Bikeman wrote:
> Oh dear mike are you misguided.
>
> NOF and tables are failing you - ok so your site isnt accessable, fair
> enough few are but you surely expect your pages to display consisitently
> across browsers don't you?
>
> I checked out your site in IE7:
>
> 1. On http://ktf-design.com/html/web_design.html your layout is all over the
> place. I am sure you don't really want your clients thumbnails to cover the
> associated text.
>
> 2. http://ktf-design.com/html/product_development.html is left justified
> whilst all other pages are centered.
>
> You also haven't any meta tags (same is true for some of your clients
> sites!) and there is little content so I'd be real interested to know what
> keywords this site ranks so highly for.
>
> It's not my intension to slag someone's efforts off but really please don't
> expect me to believe that this site pulls in $16,000 a month!
>
> psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio when it was
> built by www.studio-neko.com/
>
>
>

Bikeman wrote:
> Oh dear mike are you misguided.
>
> NOF and tables are failing you - ok so your site isnt accessable, fair
> enough few are but you surely expect your pages to display consisitently
> across browsers don't you?
>
> I checked out your site in IE7:
>
> 1. On http://ktf-design.com/html/web_design.html your layout is all over the
> place. I am sure you don't really want your clients thumbnails to cover the
> associated text.
>
> 2. http://ktf-design.com/html/product_development.html is left justified
> whilst all other pages are centered.
>
> You also haven't any meta tags (same is true for some of your clients
> sites!) and there is little content so I'd be real interested to know what
> keywords this site ranks so highly for.
>
> It's not my intension to slag someone's efforts off but really please don't
> expect me to believe that this site pulls in $16,000 a month!
>
> psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio when it was
> built by www.studio-neko.com/
>
>
Thanks for your post - I didn't want to drag on my points. There are
definitely some serious design issues on his site for the majority of
the world's browsers. This was my point - these snafu's in CSS are all
over the place. I was using a CSS editor last night and having to keep
an eye on the area that lights up the different browsers that have
issues with the code I was using. I was on a site designed by a CSS
author last week where graphics covered text. I have a very long html
file that fully validates and for reasons unknown a random line of text
will vanish from the content requiring a reload to bring it back. My
whole point was - standards are getting there, fine. But don't be so
googleyed that you can't see the warts.

Mike Coombes wrote:
> Hi Bikerman
>
> Sorry, but you're looking at the wrong site. The design site is
> mid-redesign and no, doesn't bring in anything like that kind of money.
> It's catch 22 - if I could earn a full time living at web design, I'd
> work harder at making the site 110% - if the site was 110%, I might get
> more work... but I'm always busy. Metatags I don't bother with any more,
> as neither does google. Content is king.
>
> My main business site is www.albionart.co.uk.
>
> Search terms : concrete copings, concrete coping stones, concrete pier
> caps, concrete balustrading, and many more, all make front page (I
> assume everywhere, I can only go by the local datacentre) and most at
> no. 1.
>
> It's a niche market within the building trade in the UK and the website
> is moving the company from a small local supplier to one that competes
> nationally. That $16k/month is likely to be overshadowed soon as it
> looks like it's brought us to the attention of one of the major players,
> and we're discussing a contract worth something like $800k.
>
> Bikeman wrote:
>> Oh dear mike are you misguided.
>>
>> NOF and tables are failing you - ok so your site isnt accessable, fair
>> enough few are but you surely expect your pages to display
>> consisitently across browsers don't you?
>>
>> I checked out your site in IE7:
>>
>> 1. On http://ktf-design.com/html/web_design.html your layout is all
>> over the place. I am sure you don't really want your clients
>> thumbnails to cover the associated text.
>>
>> 2. http://ktf-design.com/html/product_development.html is left
>> justified whilst all other pages are centered.
>>
>> You also haven't any meta tags (same is true for some of your clients
>> sites!) and there is little content so I'd be real interested to know
>> what keywords this site ranks so highly for.
>>
>> It's not my intension to slag someone's efforts off but really please
>> don't expect me to believe that this site pulls in $16,000 a month!
>>
>> psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio when
>> it was built by www.studio-neko.com/
>>
>>
Very nice designs! But if you think meta-tags are dead - you are
clearly wrong on that one. The ways search engines index content are
always evolving and I would not be so quick to throw them out.

Richard Wayne Garganta wrote:
>
>>
>> psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio when
>> it was built by www.studio-neko.com/

I designed the original Dutch site. NF Publishing got taken over by
someone else in the US who had their own designer. I still design for
NF's original principal. But anyway, I'm here to discuss pros and cons
of CSS, not have rocks thrown at me.

Mike Coombes wrote:
> Richard Wayne Garganta wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio when
>>> it was built by www.studio-neko.com/
>
> I designed the original Dutch site. NF Publishing got taken over by
> someone else in the US who had their own designer. I still design for
> NF's original principal. But anyway, I'm here to discuss pros and cons
> of CSS, not have rocks thrown at me.

I think there is some confusion on who said what here.

Sorry Richard, my inept editing!!

Richard Wayne Garganta wrote:
> Mike Coombes wrote:
>> Richard Wayne Garganta wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> psWhy do you have http://www.nfpublishing.com/ in your portfolio
>>>> when it was built by www.studio-neko.com/
>>
>> I designed the original Dutch site. NF Publishing got taken over by
>> someone else in the US who had their own designer. I still design for
>> NF's original principal. But anyway, I'm here to discuss pros and
>> cons of CSS, not have rocks thrown at me.
>
> I think there is some confusion on who said what here.

Nancy O wrote:
> Karl, You are NOT a lone voice here. I've been beggin' for this
> since ver 8. And I was really hoping 10 would prove to be the holy
> grail but it fell way short of my CSS-P expectations. I and many
> others who used to frequent these groups like Lucian, Michael E,
> Rammie & Wayne have jumped over to DW too.
>
> To put it another way, if anyone values their Search Engine rankings
> (and who doesn't these days?) you have to have valid code and text
> based navigation for robots to follow. One misstep can cost you.

I can see no dependence between W3C in/valid code and/or table based
design vs. CSS on one hand and search engine rankings on the other hand.

I have many Google top 10 rankings for sites built with NOF MX / 7.

Peter

>
> http://groups.google.com/group/only-...eck-list?hl=en
>
>
> Table based layouts are on the way out. You can get away with using
> them, sure. But if you do, they MUST be styled correctly using CSS
> and NOT html. So if you've got to use CSS to style the tables anyway,
> you should be using div for your layouts. This seems like a no
> brainer to me but maybe I'm Abby Normal.
>
> -Nancy
>
>
>
> "Karl Strieby" <karlDOTstrieby@kDASHcDASHp.com> wrote in message
> news:f1eg2g$7ir3@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
>> <snip>
>>> Hi Karl,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply; sounds logical. I had a look at your site,
>>> and really like the content and style of
> writing.
>>> Waterspider
>>
>> Thanks :-).
>>
>> I have often wondered if I am a lone voice in the NOF community
>> advocating that the product should produce more modern, CSS-driven,
>> table-free page layouts.
>>
>> I will be moderately interested in seeing where (or not) NOF goes
>> with this. All my new web development the last couple of years has
>> come from Dreamweaver, and I've been dabbling with ColdFusion and
>> database-driven content more lately. Very powerful stuff :-).
>>
>> -- Cheers, Karl
>>
>> http://www.k-c-p.com/
>
>