Goodbye NOF

[Allison Moore]

On 9/12/2011 9:55 AM, JLewis wrote:
> This thread is all about what's wrong with Netobjects. I would like to
> see everyone who is happy with the NO 12 Update to post here what thay
> like about Netobjects and why they are _not__jumping ship.

There's a lot I still like about NOF although it can be frustrating. I
think the first thing I prefer over other apps I've looked at is the
site management aspect. MasterBorders are very important to me. The
ability to assign ID colors to the MBs is a feature I don't want to give
up. It's invaluable in keeping track of what I've done in pages that
require very similar MBs and in seeing at a glance how pages are set up.

For me, v12.1 has been more stable than 12.0, so that's a plus. I also
find 12 to be somewhat faster than previous versions.

> Xara Web Designer looks attractive, though from what I read it cannot
> handle large sites. Also, I don't see in Xara were you can exclude a
> page from navigation while you are working on it, or exclude a page from
> puiblishing. So, I look at programs like Xara though always come back to
> Fusion.

I'm a long-time user and big fan of Xara's design app. It's rare that I
use anything else for graphics. Even the photos I use on our site are
prepared using Xara Design Pro. However, there's no possibility that I
could use Xara Web Designer in place of NOF. XWD is intended for easily
designing sites where the focus is on the graphic appearance. Although I
use a lot of graphics, the text is key on our site. As you say, there's
no way to exclude a page from navigation or publishing. I don't believe
there's a way to publish only selected pages. Menuing is immaterial to
me in either NOF or XWD because I use AWM for that. Plus, our site is
big enough that I've now split it into two, moving all the landing pages
and most of the contact forms into a separate nod file. It may not be
long before I have to do something similar to our articles and press
releases. I don't even want to contemplate dealing with that issue
without NOF's Site View. Xara's P&L gallery is no substitute for it.

Oh yeah, our site includes around two dozen contact forms, most of which
you'll never see unless you get to one of them through a landing page.
Using NOF and the Tectite script, making new ones is a snap.

> I do believe that many of the problems
> that people report turn out to be from "user error."

That may be true. However, most of the issues I've had with NOF (user
since v5), especially in recent years, are definitely program problems.

Allison

[Adrian]

On 12/09/2011 14:55, JLewis wrote:
> I do believe that many of the problems
> that people report turn out to be from "user error."

Not sure I agree with that one..... though it'd be a convenient excuse <g>

Examples

- the unwanted graphics optimisation issue that appeared in V12 and is
apparently still there in V12.1 (I'm not going to d'load 12.1 so I'll
never know!)

- my latest favourite where NOF12 dumps a phantom duplicate copy of the
most-recently edited text on top of the same text but offset. Disappears
when you click elsewhere on the page, but reappears when you save. Not
only irritating, but scary in a 'wonder what's about to fall over next' way.

- NOF's tendency to fall in a heap when editing large tables

- General crashes that result in the dreaded 'Damaged files' message,
and various amounts of rebuilding work

Hard to see how any of these are down to 'user error'....??

Adrian

[Kenfriedman]

This thread needs some music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nllCZI1XoE

How about some sad violin music?

[Twayne]

In news:JLewis.4zyg1r@no-mx.forums.netobjects.com,
JLewis <JLewis.4zyg1r@no-mx.forums.netobjects.com> typed:
> This thread is all about what's wrong with Netobjects. I
> would like to see everyone who is happy with the NO 12
> Update to post here what thay like about Netobjects and
> why they are _not__jumping ship. Everyone wanted the
> Version 12 patch. Now we have it and there still are
> complaints. Won't there always be complaints with any
> software? It would take a lot for me to jump ship from
> Netobjects, altjough I have to say that reading this
> thread makes me wonder. I am planning on investing a lot
> more time developing a site, and want to make certain
> from the beginning that I am using the right software
> with the least problems. Xara Web Designer looks
> attractive, though from what I read it cannot handle
> large sites. Also, I don't see in Xara were you can
> exclude a page from navigation while you are working on
> it, or exclude a page from puiblishing. So, I look at
> programs like Xara though always come back to Fusion. I
> want to hear from people who love Fusion, would never
> change, and know how to use the program. I do believe
> that many of the problems that people report turn out to
> be from "user error." From all the people who love
> Fusion, let us know why.

I think you're on the wrong track there. It isn't quantity, it's quality.
Many NOF users may be happy but they may not do anything but very simple web
pages and be complete neophytes in getting more then "hello world" working.
I'd be very happy with NOF 11 if I knew productve work was in progress
and future plans were known, but there's been a long silence from before the
days of people discovering support wasn't supporting anything. The company,
whoever owns t now, and it doesn'\t seem to be NO for a couple years now,
has lost any crediblty with me, is seriously overpriced and in effect does
not even offer any kind of competitive upgrades.
I'm guessing their good engineers and planners are gone, probably some
kind of mgmnt fallout, and no one is watching the store anymore.
Historically, of 14 versions they have released and charged a LOT of money
for, only about 4 of those revs were good ones. They still don't tell you on
the download page that there is no support for it and leave it to the poor
victim, I mean, customer, to discover such things on their own. I'll bet
there isn't even an accurate bug list anywhere if they did have people to do
the coding and who knew the product intimately.

[Kenfriedman]

I have used NOF since version 1. I have built several websites two of which two are still accessible from the web. I have also tried to use DW and found it difficult to use. Frankly, DW is an overblown, overpriced piece of software like almost all of Adobe's software.

NOF allows me to DESIGN web sites and keep the pages in a consistent format using the MasterBorders function. Although V 12 has had some rough spots that the update fixed for me, I will stick with NOF as long as it exists and use it to future web sites.

I am a certificated Webmaster with IWG and know a considerable amount about XHTML and CSS. I am extremely thankful that NOF goes a long way to use these updated technologies without forcing me to dig into the HTML. I build websites to support my business, which is the selling of the books I write. I do not have the time to spend to have to fix the 100+ page websites one page at at time.

For me, NOF is a productivity tool. Of course, I also keep an older version installed whenever an new version comes out.

I also resent that NOF users have been called stupid or amateurish in this thread. I do not believe this only distracts from rational discussion.

[Tom Spurlock]

I've used Front Page and then Fusion for the last 4yrs. Fusion has worked OK, but I miss Front Page. Front Page was stable, very stable. Fusion seems laced with gremlins running around in the code, little things I notice. Like right now, I just figured out that if my pages are more than 900 long, the margins for left and right jump around a few pixels all by themselves when I publish, even though "WHAT I SEE" in my development environment is identical margin settings. Really weird. Although all my margins are IDENTICAL for all pages, if one page drops below 900 in length (which should have nothing to do with width), that page ALONE won't center on browser EXACTLY where the other pages center. So when you bounce between published pages, the pages jump left and right a few pixels for those greater than 900 long. What the F is that all about? This took me an hour to figure out, all to find out it's a bug in the code. That's the only thing that can explain it. Shorter than 900, all is well, longer than 900, pages start jumping left and right. I would love to find another program that's stable and WYSIWYG design tool as easy as Front Page, but has better technology and flexibility. I'd prefer it be on a MAC, but it seems nobody makes anything decent for the MAC. Dreamweaver is way too complex for what I do, I don't need all that work. I took a whole course on DW and concluded it was too much work. And Microsoft's Front Page replacement, Expression Web, wow what can I say.... nothing like Front Page, too complex of a learning curve, non intuitive. Now they have Webmatrix for beginners, just what I need since I've been making sites for 13yrs now. Can you guys list all the different programs you like, not including CMS stuff. I'd jump from NOF if I could find something stable and capable.

[Adrian]

Hi Tom
Some of us (ex-NOF folks) have been using WYSIWYG Web Builder.
Slightly different way of working, but it's a stable program,
well-supported, frequently updated, good value for money - and there's a
free trial...

Send me a private email if you want to chat about it - and I'll point
you to some sites that I've made with it.

Adrian

On 16/09/2011 07:18, Tom Spurlock wrote:
> I've used Front Page and then Fusion for the last 4yrs. Fusion has
> worked OK, but I miss Front Page. Front Page was stable, very stable.
> Fusion seems laced with gremlins running around in the code, little
> things I notice. Like right now, I just figured out that if my pages
> are more than 900 long, the margins for left and right jump around a few
> pixels all by themselves when I publish, even though "WHAT I SEE" in my
> development environment is identical margin settings. Really weird.
> Although all my margins are IDENTICAL for all pages, if one page drops
> below 900 in length (which should have nothing to do with width), that
> page ALONE won't center on browser EXACTLY where the other pages center.
> So when you bounce between published pages, the pages jump left and
> right a few pixels for those greater than 900 long. What the F is that
> all about? This took me an hour to figure out, all to find out it's a
> bug in the code. That's the only thing that can explain it. Shorter
> than 900, all is well, longer than 900, pages start jumping left and
> right. I would love to find another program that's stable and WYSIWYG
> design tool as easy as Front Page, but has better technology and
> flexibility. I'd prefer it be on a MAC, but it seems nobody makes
> anything decent for the MAC. Dreamweaver is way too complex for what I
> do, I don't need all that work. I took a whole course on DW and
> concluded it was too much work. And Microsoft's Front Page replacement,
> Expression Web, wow what can I say.... nothing like Front Page, too
> complex of a learning curve, non intuitive. Now they have Webmatrix
> _for_beginners_, just what I need since I've been making sites for 13yrs
> now. Can you guys list all the different programs you like, not
> including CMS stuff. I'd jump from NOF if I could find something stable
> and capable.
>
>

[Adendum]

Tom,

Are you sure you're 900px problem is not just the addition of a scroll bar causing pages to appear to shift? If that is the case simply add the following line of code to your CSS style.

html { height: 100.2%; margin-bottom: 1px }

[RayC]

There oughta be a check box in the MasterBorder properties that simply says: "Force scroll bars."

I'm not seeing a whole lotta love per JL's request.

Here's my reasons: I've spent several years figuring out all the quirks and limitations in NOF and how to work around them. I'm comfortable with it now. I've even learned to take some of those quirks and use them to my advantage. Now even before I start working on a site, I find myself planning it in my head, and that includes how I'll set it up in Fusion.

That's a big mental block to overcome. I bought the package from "those other guys", but it comes with it's own set of quirks -- and limitations -- that I now have to get my head around. I know: you have to just jump in and thrash around until you can swim -- exactly what I did with NOF all those years ago. But every time you bump up against something that you don't know how to do -- or can't do -- you are always tempted to go back.

So in my case, it's "The Devil You Know."

[Trimdoner]

"So in my case, it's "The Devil You Know." "
My case exactly

I jumped on the WYS** bandwagon, and must admit I'm very impressed with what it can do. (I'm also on the Dreamweaver wagon, but it really is MUCH to much hard work for my simple sites and lies abandoned...)
But little things which I find easy in NOF mean extra jumps in the other. And I was turned off a bit early on when I realised editing a nice web-tuned graphic in WYS** turned it into a monstrous png file, so that was the first built-in function layed to one side......

I still have no confidence at all in upgrading to NOF12 though - I'm keeping all current sites in 11.