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Thread: 2013 and framesets

  1. #1
    Senior Member franko's Avatar
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    Default 2013 and framesets

    Interesting... frames, of course, are not included in the html 5 spec, but they are still included in NoF 2013, I guess because you still have the choice of outputting html 4. However, when you select 'generate autoframes' in the masterborder properties palette, NoF happily lets you do so giving the impression that it is going to, in fact, generate frames even though html 5 output is selected.

    However, when you look at the generated code, there are no framesets generated (which is a Good Thing IMHO). Maybe a dialog pop-up saying something like, 'html 5 output selected; frames deactivated' could be generated when somebody selects 'generate autoframes' with html 5 selected. Otherwise they might Get A Shock when they see their web site sans frames.

  2. #2
    Senior Member mia's Avatar
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    franko,

    I know you mean it serious, but everything should be welcome that undermines the user's intention to use frames.
    In fact this is on my wish list for a long time: a pop-up window when frames are selected saying "Do you really know what you are doing?".

    Experience told me over the years that users are activating frames out of the wrong reasons.
    They confuse frames with masterborders or they use them for design reasons ( blue background in the top, yellow background on the left..) or they think it's cool to have the navigation been stuck at the top of the page....
    Last edited by mia; 05-08-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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    Senior Member RayC's Avatar
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    Mia, I completely agree with you from a philosophical perspective, but from a software design perspective, Franko is totally right. To have a program indicate that it will perform a certain function, then ignore it is bad form.

    We all know that NOF allows you to do many naughty things, and it is up to the user to decide if that's what they want. Imagine you set up a block of text to scroll via the marquee tag, and also to blink on and off, and when you publish NOF decides this is too tacky, and does not publish with this effect. Half of your websites suddenly wouldn't look the way you want!

    Maybe the NOF team needs to examine why people use frames, what functionality they want when they use frames, and come up with features that satisfy those uses without the need for frames. Implement these features, then drop frames entirely. For example, if the main reason for using a frame is to have the navigation stay at the top as the page scrolls, make a "floating" option for the navigation bar.

    Although, this may become an issue with the ability to import older template from earlier versions. For compatibility reasons, they may have painted themselves into a corner. Unless they can find a way to gracefully import a frame-based site without totally destroying it.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member mia's Avatar
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    Franko is totally right
    I didn't say that Franko was wrong.
    Sure, if a function is offered a function should work.

    Hopefully you did unterstand how my post was meant...
    Otherwise I will mark next posts like this with an irony on-off button....
    Last edited by mia; 05-08-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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    Senior Member RayC's Avatar
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    Oh, I get you. But you know how sensitive Franko can be. I didn't want him to feel his concern was being dismissed.

    All kidding aside, the NO-Boys are going to have to make some hard decisions going forward. Do they want to be Microsoft and carry a lot of old baggage along to maintain compatibility with stuff that's 10 years old? Or do they want to be Apple, and tell everyone that everything they did up until last Tuesday is now obsolete and unsupported and they must change everything to the new way?

    Hopefully NO can find a happy medium, but that requires more work and forethought.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member franko's Avatar
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    Yeah, sensitive as a brick sh**house. Actually I'm delighted that html 5 has finally dropped frames from the spec; it's way past time. I'm sure there must have been good reasons for them when they were introduced in html 4.0 in '97, although I've always been at a loss to understand what the advantages were.

    On the subject of users using them because they don't know what they were for, one of the indictments against programs like NoF is that they allow newbies who don't have a clue what they're doing, have no training in html or css or web/internet protocols in general, to create web sites. I saw an example with a parish recently where the Rector decided he was going to design the parish web site, using another wysiwyg program. When I had a look at it, I found he had uploaded a 16MB logo and then used the IMG parameters to resize it. And wondered why it was so slow to download (I still haven't told him yet).

    It's the western disease - 'I should be good at something because I want to be good at it, but I don't want to invest the time in training and experience to get good at it.' I've seen it in photography, videography, cooking, sex... Don't get me started or you'll think I'm just a grumpy old man

    Come to think of it... I AM a grumpy old man

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