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Thread: Responsive Themes?

  1. #11
    Senior Member TheeDragon's Avatar
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    IMHO
    Wordpress is pretty lame
    again
    IMHO

    ps

    when needed
    I add real forums

  2. #12
    Senior Member franko's Avatar
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    I'll be long dead and gone to the land of the living before html6 is promulgated. Html 5, as Trimdoner pointed out, hasn't been promulgated as a standard yet, although it is support by, at least, webkit based browsers. Given that html 4 was published in December, 1997, it will likely be around 2030 before html 6 becomes a standard. And I for one won't be building web sites then!

    Incidentally, xhtml5 is also being developed alongside html5 and will probably also become a standard around the same time frame.

    Wordpress, like everything else, has its strengths and weaknesses. Yes, there are some responsive templates available, if you like customising someone else's design. IMHO Joomla is a far better and more flexible environment that wordpress, as is Drupal. Both are just as easy to install and customise but don't have that 'wordpress' look to them. I can always tell a wordpress site when I see one and, frankly, my clients have always paid me because of my design skills, not because I can easily customise something generic for them. For my pro bono clients, which provide most of my work these days, wordpress makes sense - it's easy for them to have several people update content and they're not too concerned about the design reflecting either their corporate standards or their brand image. Wordpress with artisteer (which supports responsive output either to CMS templates or to html) make an effective combination; Joomla or Drupal with artisteer an even more effective one.

    I have no doubt at all that Netobjects is busy right now figuring out how they can integrate responsive output into a wysiwyg code generator like NoF. Steve and the guys are not idiots; they've taken what was, at the time, a pretty lame product after website pros had done virtually nothing with it, and turned it into a pretty leading edge product. RWD is not an easy thing to integrate into a wysiwyg code generator, which is why nobody has really done it yet. Except artisteer, and once again you're limited to fairly generic templates, even if you're starting from scratch.

    At the moment, if you want to develop responsive sites, there are some very good - free - boilerplates available to start from. As I indicated above, for my money the best of these is "Foundation" closely followed by "320 and up." Open these up in a html/css editor and you have the basis for a responsive site. Yes, you do have to know html and css and you do have to build the pages with code, although most good editors have wysiwyg preview. Again, the best free editors I've found are BlueGriffon, NetBeans IDE and Komodo IDE. But if you can't code and you need RWD then you're pretty much stuck with Artisteer/CMS and some fairly generic templates.

    I expect to see an udate to NoF 2013 within 6 months or so adding at least some responsive features (most importanly, support for the viewport meta tag, media queries [480, 600, 768, 992 and 1382px] and the ability to spec a web site width and height in percentages of the screen width of the device. 2013 already has the ability to spec type in ems and in percentages (how many ppl here actually use this ability?).

    In short, as I've stated in several other posts here, the future has to be responsive with devices displaying a web site on devices ranging from 320px on a vertically held smartphone up to wide screen TVs (and have you seen the latest offerings from Samsung in Korea? Wowser!).

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by franko View Post
    I'll be long dead and gone to the land of the living before html6 is promulgated. Html 5, as Trimdoner pointed out, hasn't been promulgated as a standard yet, although it is support by, at least, webkit based browsers. Given that html 4 was published in December, 1997, it will likely be around 2030 before html 6 becomes a standard. And I for one won't be building web sites then!

    Incidentally, xhtml5 is also being developed alongside html5 and will probably also become a standard around the same time frame.

    Wordpress, like everything else, has its strengths and weaknesses. Yes, there are some responsive templates available, if you like customising someone else's design. IMHO Joomla is a far better and more flexible environment that wordpress, as is Drupal. Both are just as easy to install and customise but don't have that 'wordpress' look to them. I can always tell a wordpress site when I see one and, frankly, my clients have always paid me because of my design skills, not because I can easily customise something generic for them. For my pro bono clients, which provide most of my work these days, wordpress makes sense - it's easy for them to have several people update content and they're not too concerned about the design reflecting either their corporate standards or their brand image. Wordpress with artisteer (which supports responsive output either to CMS templates or to html) make an effective combination; Joomla or Drupal with artisteer an even more effective one.

    I have no doubt at all that Netobjects is busy right now figuring out how they can integrate responsive output into a wysiwyg code generator like NoF. Steve and the guys are not idiots; they've taken what was, at the time, a pretty lame product after website pros had done virtually nothing with it, and turned it into a pretty leading edge product. RWD is not an easy thing to integrate into a wysiwyg code generator, which is why nobody has really done it yet. Except artisteer, and once again you're limited to fairly generic templates, even if you're starting from scratch.

    At the moment, if you want to develop responsive sites, there are some very good - free - boilerplates available to start from. As I indicated above, for my money the best of these is "Foundation" closely followed by "320 and up." Open these up in a html/css editor and you have the basis for a responsive site. Yes, you do have to know html and css and you do have to build the pages with code, although most good editors have wysiwyg preview. Again, the best free editors I've found are BlueGriffon, NetBeans IDE and Komodo IDE. But if you can't code and you need RWD then you're pretty much stuck with Artisteer/CMS and some fairly generic templates.

    I expect to see an udate to NoF 2013 within 6 months or so adding at least some responsive features (most importanly, support for the viewport meta tag, media queries [480, 600, 768, 992 and 1382px] and the ability to spec a web site width and height in percentages of the screen width of the device. 2013 already has the ability to spec type in ems and in percentages (how many ppl here actually use this ability?).

    In short, as I've stated in several other posts here, the future has to be responsive with devices displaying a web site on devices ranging from 320px on a vertically held smartphone up to wide screen TVs (and have you seen the latest offerings from Samsung in Korea? Wowser!).
    I Totally Agree.....

    I DO NOT Think RD Should be the Designer or Programmers Responsibility...... RD Should be COMPLETELY Transparent to the Designer or Programmer... Ie. RD should happen "Automatically".................. This Could be Accomplished by RD being Incorporated into Language's, OS's Or the Displaying Devices Hardware................
    Last edited by Bronco Billy; 05-25-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  4. #14
    Senior Member franko's Avatar
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    I DO NOT Think RD Should be the Designer or Programmers Responsibility...... RD Should be COMPLETELY Transparent to the Designer or Programmer... Ie. RD should happen "Automatically"
    I completely agree. However, there has to be an intermediate phase, a series of stepping stones, before we reach that goal. We're not going to go directly into a fully fledged, transparent to designer/developer or clueless newbie for where we are now. But it WILL come.

  5. #15
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    Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful, detailed and intelligent dialog on this topic! And Franko, you're spot on concerning RWD and the necessary phases to get there on a wysiwyg platform.

    Take care,
    Steve

  6. #16

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by franko View Post
    I completely agree. However, there has to be an intermediate phase, a series of stepping stones, before we reach that goal. We're not going to go directly into a fully fledged, transparent to designer/developer or clueless newbie for where we are now. But it WILL come.

    It was a Cold Day in Hell Today.............. So I Took Advantage of it...................... And Downloaded Artisteer and Joomla..........

  7. #17
    Senior Member franko's Avatar
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    While you're at it, have a look at Drupal as well. My investigations at the moment are whether I can use NoF to rapidly develop the design of a site and then customise the generated CSS to make it responsive. Also whether I can then import it into one of the CMSs. ie do my design work in fusion; use a cms as final site output. Not sure yet how that's goiing to work but it's interesting stuff to investigate.

  8. #18

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by franko View Post
    While you're at it, have a look at Drupal as well. My investigations at the moment are whether I can use NoF to rapidly develop the design of a site and then customise the generated CSS to make it responsive. Also whether I can then import it into one of the CMSs. ie do my design work in fusion; use a cms as final site output. Not sure yet how that's goiing to work but it's interesting stuff to investigate.
    I will eventually download Drupal...... I Also Downloaded the One You Hate...... WordPress..... Within 1 Hour of WordPress Use.....I had a Very Rudimentary RWD Site Up and Running on Xampp.... Which to Me is DAM AMAZING...... I Will NOT MIX RWD and Nof..... I Will Do Some of Both....... Until Google Search goes RWD..... then I will Develop Entirely using RWD...... My Personality is Such that I can Change My ENTIRE OUTLOOK on ANY Subject in a VERY Short TIME Period..... TO Me HTML 5 in NOF13 is Now a MUTE Subject.... and Every Resource NOF POSSESS'S should Be Directed to RWD.........

  9. #19
    Senior Member Kitty's Avatar
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    From your conversation, most of you sound like you know a piece of code or two. I use NOF because I do not like programming/code stuff because I don't know how and don't care to. Of course I have knowledge enough to do some things if I must, but I prefer not to.

    My post is probably going to go in million different directions... regarding responsive design & WordPress & NOF. I love the creative things I can do in NOF. Fortunately I cater to creative clients so it can be a lot of fun. The changes that have been taking place over the last ___ years are bothersome to me because I can't seem to catch up if my good ol' NetObjects doesn't change along with everything else. Mainly with responsive design.

    I would be lost without WordPress because then I would have no options (except Blogger) for my clients to update their sites. I love it. I designed a site with a responsive theme and it was so cool to see it on my iPhone and watch it collapse and expand as it should. Yes, it's the little things that thrill me.
    One thing with WP is that I use the same premium theme to customize sites (Thesis), so like anything else, I can do more things with it because I'm used to it.

    ANYway, I've been distracted while writing this and totally ran out of steam. hahaha, probably shouldn't even post it now.
    The biz http://ink2art.com
    Giving it away since 1995... http://fullmoongraphics.com

  10. #20
    Senior Member Trimdoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty View Post
    From your conversation, most of you sound like you know a piece of code or two. I use NOF because I do not like programming/code stuff because I don't know how and don't care to. Of course I have knowledge enough to do some things if I must, but I prefer not to.
    This forum by its very nature is of course occupied mainly by people who know and love NOF.
    When I mentioned Wordpress as a way forward regarding responsive design, it must have sounded like heresy to some other forumites. Now that I dare raise my head above the trenches again, I would like to point out that NOF (albeit 11) is still my design mainstay - I still have 26 active sites running and updated with it.

    Out of the software I've bought, installed and used, here's a quick overview:
    NetObjects Fusion: 26 active, 1 in progress, 12 offline/business closed.
    Dreamweaver 4: 0 - too hard
    Serif Webplus X5: 0 active, 3 offline/business closed
    MS Expression Web: 0
    Web Builder 8: 0

    ...just always looking for some miracle way to build websites.

    My experiments with Wordpress began with my own 'hobby-horse' site trimdon.com. Although only a personal site, it has grown to hundreds of pages, and had to be sub-divided into smaller sections for its own safety. It seemed like an ideal candidate for a dabble in database driven sites, so if it all went belly-up I wouldn't have any paying customers screaming at me. I've dabbled with Joomla, Drupal, PHPwebsite, Wordpress, EasyGen and a couple of others over the years, but only to see how they work, not for mainline projects. PHPbb and Simple Machines for forums, but no websites. CMS where needed by Toko Gold.

    It was while searching for responsive themes (so many came up for Wordpress!) that I decided on Wordpress - no particular fondness for that platform, and no disdain for the others!
    As I don't have anyone else to edit this site, there's only me as admin, posts aren't used at all (it's all done as pages) and all the hassle of handling 'users' is avoided, though of course this can be activated per page or site if ever needed. It it all goes wrong, I've still got my NOF files and backups, so it can be reinstated in minutes.
    Just without a responsive layout.......


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