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Thread: OT: what do I say?

  1. #31
    Waterspider
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips


    "Richard Wayne Garganta" <richinri@cox.net> wrote in message
    news:evaaht$3cs3@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Very interesting but here is the way I see it. If everyone designs
    > websites following certain guidelines, then all sites start to look the
    > same. Sameness breeds mediocrity and boredom. Then the site that gets
    > the most focus will be the one that is different.


    Yes, it's good to get a strong reaction to your design, but you don't want
    people screaming, "Omygawd that's soooo ugly!"

    I feel, we as web
    > designers are getting stuck real bad with this square, centered look, with
    > left and bottom navigation.


    Until we can buy round, borderless monitors, there is no other way. And it's
    Left and Top, not bottom, that gets attention.

    > I break the "rules" deliberately and watch as people say, "Hey, that is
    > different." It gets attention immediately. Web design is ART. And there
    > is some truth to the statement that you can't learn ART.


    I disagree. Most anyone can learn art; it's just harder for some.

    You can
    > learn to copy art, but that ain't the same. I have seen websites designed
    > by experts that carefully choose everything from "color wheel" matched
    > colors to pixel widths of lines and some kid will get on and throw
    > something together with no knowledge at all and everyone goes, "Wow, look
    > at that!"
    > Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


    Yes, that's very true, but it supports my idea that all of us could learn
    more. In web design, like any other pursuit, it's best to continue learning.
    The market is competitive, we need to stay on top of the heap and design
    trends, and technology, are constantly evolving. That said, if it ain't
    broke, don't fix it and, if you like homilies, you have to know the rules
    before you can break them.

    With web design, one must consider the viewer above all else. You are most
    likely selling something to the viewer, be it a service or product, and idea
    or information, and you should be making it as easy as possible for him to
    buy what you're selling. He's more likely to buy if he's comfortable and
    happy. If you frustrate him with underlined text that doesn't link when he
    "knows" that underlined text is a link, he's uncomfortable. If a colour
    combo or background-text combo is difficult to read, he's unhappy. If badly
    placed images jolt his sensibilities, he frowns. If text runs into borders,
    he feels claustrophobic. If the navigation doesn't make sense to him, he
    feels stupid. If photos are of poor quality, he feels insulted. If they
    don't have a purpose, he feels that his time is wasted. And on and on and
    on.

    My point is, it's all about the viewer. When one experiments with unproven
    layouts and disregards basic principles in his design work, it's all about
    him, at the expense of the viewer. When this happens, the website is not
    effective and can even hurt the client's business.

    Waterspider



  2. #32
    Waterspider
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips

    Reply interspersed.

    "Micah Klesick" <Micah@creationtidbits.com> wrote ...
    > Waterspider wrote:
    >> "Micah Klesick" <Micah@creationtidbits.com> wrote
    >>> Meanwhile, what do you guys think of the design?
    >>> Micah
    >>>

    >> Well, you asked.
    >> Background - Use a solid-colour background, i.e. pale yellow or even
    >> white. The one you've got ends before the right edge of my screen and
    >> disappears before the bottom of some of the pages. I know it's a
    >> honeycomb, but it looks like some kind of plastic filter or screen.
    >> Colour - No, I didn't spell it wrong, I'm Canadian. <g>
    >> A contrasting colour, used sparingly, might be attractive. You could try
    >> blue or green, but not red or orange. You need something to get away from
    >> that jaundiced glow you've got going on now with all the different shades
    >> of yellow.
    >> Graphic Elements - The banner and nav bar do not do their job of framing
    >> the content of the page, rather they get lost amongst the confusion of
    >> all the other stuff. Perhaps choose larger banner and menu button images,
    >> and definitely don't put anything above them. Things seem to be placed
    >> helter-skelter. Lose the boxes, let the text appear on the background.
    >> Right now the text is running right up to the edge of the boxes, making
    >> the page look crowded and way too busy.
    >> Photos - Delete or at least change the mouseover text on Ginger's photo
    >> ("Early Property 022"). Yeah, a couple of the others are weird too. Keep
    >> your photos consistent, i.e. don't have one with rounded corners and
    >> others square, some with borders and some without. "Ray Tammy Dan" is a
    >> nice photo, but who are these people, what do they have to do with
    >> beekeeping and why is their photo on the website? The viewer should not
    >> be asking himself these questions. Finally, if I was thinking honey, I
    >> wouldn't want to see a photo of an aging, long-haired dog but I don't
    >> think you want to mention this to your clients. Macro photos of bees on
    >> flowers would be great though.
    >> Content - Proofread again. You've got a couple of typos and there
    >> shouldn't be any on such a small site that you've been paid for. Why is
    >> Agribusiness Management Company capitalized? I think the site would be
    >> more effective with more information on honeybees.
    >> General Layout - There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason to how
    >> you've placed things on pages. Draw (on paper) an outline of the visual
    >> components of the page, and remember that the viewer's eye will travel
    >> from the upper left corner to the lower right. So, you want the most
    >> "weight" along the left margin to keep his eye (his attention) from
    >> zooming right off the page. A stronger nav bar would accomplish this,
    >> then you could place your credit card logos and your own copyright notice
    >> underneath.
    >> To get you in the mood, here's a cool page I found while looking at other
    >> beekeeper websites:
    >> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/alien...media/bee.html
    >> Finally, I think you've got a good handle on NOF; everything seems to
    >> work well, but I think you have to do just a bit of studying up on design
    >> principles and writing for the web if you're going to be turning this
    >> into a business. Good luck, and please don't take any of this blather
    >> personally. It's merely my opinion, and you did ask for it. <g>

    > thanks for the thoughts and ideas. Fact is, I have tried about 75% of
    > everything you said. The website is set up exactly like they wanted it. A
    > little annoying to me at times, but I try and suggest, then I do what they
    > want. <g>


    It's sooo difficult to tell a client that he's clueless about web design or
    copywriting. Same thing happens with hardcopy publishing-- "I'm paying for
    this ad, and this is what I want!" I have scars on my tongue from biting it
    so often. <g>

    > I totally agree on the dog, but he insisted on it.


    LOL, smelly old dog hair in a jar of sticky honey. I feel mean for saying
    that (I love animals), but the association is all wrong.

    > If you had read the text on the supplier page you would know who Tammy,
    > Ray and Dan are. <g>


    How can you be sure that all your viewers will do this?

    > I will check out the text again.
    > The thing about this site is that it is not ABOUT beekeeping, it is about
    > beekeeping supplies, so he does not think that it need much info on
    > beekeeping itself.


    Ahhh, the secrets of sales! Good content would convince the viewer that (the
    company) is an authority on the subject, and would keep the viewer on the
    site longer. He might even bookmark it to refer back to the info, or to
    refer the site to his beekeeping buddies.

    > On the layout, I have put pics where he wanted them and how. <g> I tried
    > to place them in certain spots, etc. but he had too many and knew where he
    > wanted them. <g>


    <Waterspider thumps Micah's client over the head with a big stick,
    repeatedly.>

    > I found that PBS website a long time ago, never did watch all of it
    > though, as it not very good for learning anything. A lot of it is not so
    > good info. Cool layout though.


    Hey, you've just convinced yourself that content *is* important! <g>
    I did learn a few things about the different parts of a bee's body, which I
    found interesting. Still, the layout is the best part of the site.

    > On the good handle with NOF you are right. <g>
    > I have a tutorial website on NOF that I started about 1-2 months ago.
    > http://www.learnNOF.creationtidbits.com
    >
    > I will be putting some of your thoughts in, at least the ones they like.
    > Thanks,
    > Micah
    >

    Hope it goes well, and I look forward to seeing the revision.

    All the best,

    Waterspider



  3. #33
    Micah Klesick
    Guest

    Default Re: what do I say?

    Mike C wrote:
    > Micah I noticed you have been involved in checking out the guest book, I too
    > also found the latest release appears to have dropped the number of
    > hits,(Spam) my point is that my web site that used the guest book increased
    > in ranking? so the smammers might be doing me a favour, maybe you should
    > install a guest book (without the latest release of course), sounds like
    > water spider has some good advice painfull as it sounds, (was tempted to ask
    > what he though of one of my sites but decided my ego could not stand it).
    >
    > Mike C
    >


    wonder what the connection is? That would be really funny if the
    spammers did it. :0
    Yes, she has some good thoughts.
    I will probably put most of them to work on different sites, rather than
    redoing a lot of this site.
    Come on Mike. LOL
    Micah
    http://www.learnNOF.creationtidbits.com
    tutorials on NOF

  4. #34
    Richard Wayne Garganta
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips

    Think about it. Wouldn't smaller text REQUIRE people to look closer?
    Does that mean they are either enjoying or prefer it that way? I have
    seen people look real close to read text and after a short time say,
    "That's it, this site is too hard to read." Flash sites are notorious
    for that. I have seen countless flash sites, particularly in Europe
    that are beautiful - if you don't want to strain to read the text. I
    don't get why anyone would put 8 even 10 pt font on a screen. 12 should
    be minimum. People should NOT have to lean forward to read a glaring
    monitor.

    Waterspider wrote:
    > "Linda Gerfen" <desertlane@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:eva4e1$1on1@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>
    >> With regards to layout, this study is quite interesting and helpful:
    >> http://www.poynterextra.org/eyetrack2004/main.htm
    >>

    > Excellent article, Linda; thanks for the link. I was surprised at a few
    > things, i.e. smaller print is likely to be read rather than scanned. Still,
    > it's comforting to know that oldschool, first-year journalism theory applies
    > to web design.
    >
    > Waterspider
    >
    >


  5. #35
    Waterspider
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips


    "Richard Wayne Garganta" <richinri@cox.net> wrote in message
    news:evbu6t$8re2@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Think about it. Wouldn't smaller text REQUIRE people to look closer? Does
    > that mean they are either enjoying or prefer it that way? I have seen
    > people look real close to read text and after a short time say, "That's
    > it, this site is too hard to read." Flash sites are notorious for that.
    > I have seen countless flash sites, particularly in Europe that are
    > beautiful - if you don't want to strain to read the text. I don't get why
    > anyone would put 8 even 10 pt font on a screen. 12 should be minimum.
    > People should NOT have to lean forward to read a glaring monitor.


    The article didn't mean that people looked closer, it meant that they
    actually read the smaller text as opposed to larger text which they didn't
    read. Yes, too-small text would require one to look closer, but I think the
    article was talking about reducing the size of too-big text, which is just
    as difficult to read if there's more than a couple of lines of it. As you
    read, your brain processes chunks of text, groups of words, rather than
    doing a linear, word-by-word thing. If the text is too big, this is
    prevented and the flow of words becomes halting, almost. Like each one. Was.
    A. Separate. Sentence. There's a formula for optimum readability size for
    type, depending on font, distance and line spacing, but it's impossible to
    control this across a variety of monitors. Although I rarely use less than
    12 pt on public websites, I prefer reading 10 pt on screen, it flows easier,
    but I've got a big, high-quality monitor.

    Ahhh yes, boys and girls, size DOES matter!


    >
    > Waterspider wrote:
    >> "Linda Gerfen" <desertlane@gmail.com> wrote in message
    >> news:eva4e1$1on1@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>
    >>> With regards to layout, this study is quite interesting and helpful:
    >>> http://www.poynterextra.org/eyetrack2004/main.htm
    >>>

    >> Excellent article, Linda; thanks for the link. I was surprised at a few
    >> things, i.e. smaller print is likely to be read rather than scanned.
    >> Still, it's comforting to know that oldschool, first-year journalism
    >> theory applies to web design.
    >>
    >> Waterspider




  6. #36
    Mike C
    Guest

    Default Re: what do I say?

    Oop's sorry my appologies, either way enjoyed your constructive advice.

    Mike C

    Ps I am a hobby web person, I do one for the presence of my small
    consultancy firm, and one for Val who loves her Afghan hounds, the first web
    site (my business) is used mainly by one major client who uses the secure
    portion for some technical services I design for their use, I tend to have
    100% of my business from word of mouth, so presence for contact is all that
    is needed, it is being re vamped at the moment for contact forms and the
    like but you can see it at http://www.tsi-consultants.co.uk , the hobby site
    again with both sites all the drawings and graphics I do myself, if you
    follow even one of the links on the afghan web site you will see that the
    viewers are prety Naff at web design, so nothing to hard for them to
    understand or follow, for example I know from talking to them that they
    never use the side pannel for web search etc, they hate scrolling and tend
    to use one size of view, sad but true, no imagination, Vals web site
    http://www.tulakhounds.co.uk

    Mike C

    "Mike C" <mike_cummings@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
    news:evb5j0$5t76@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Micah I noticed you have been involved in checking out the guest book, I
    > too also found the latest release appears to have dropped the number of
    > hits,(Spam) my point is that my web site that used the guest book
    > increased in ranking? so the smammers might be doing me a favour, maybe
    > you should install a guest book (without the latest release of course),
    > sounds like water spider has some good advice painfull as it sounds, (was
    > tempted to ask what he though of one of my sites but decided my ego could
    > not stand it).
    >
    > Mike C
    >
    > "Micah Klesick" <Micah@creationtidbits.com> wrote in message
    > news:ev699j$i577@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>I have to agree with you. I do not have a agreement, but I do have
    >>everything I have ever talked to him about in a email folder and I can go
    >>back to about 3 emails that say that I am making no guarantees to search
    >>engine placement. He has paid me for the past work, I did it for $15 an
    >>hour since it was only my 6th website, Not sure what he would gain by
    >>getting any refund anyway, a couple bucks?
    >>
    >> Micah
    >>
    >> Nancy O wrote:
    >>> And his Google Keyword Ad budget per month is how much ?????
    >>>
    >>> He and his friend have been smoking wacky weed in the bee fields if they
    >>> think a brand new site can compete with the big boys in less than 1
    >>> year.
    >>>
    >>> This sounds like a ploy to get out of paying you for your time.
    >>> Depending
    >>> on the terms of your agreement (I hope you have one in writing), I would
    >>> pull the site off the server if he doesn't cough up payment.
    >>>
    >>> --Nancy
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Micah Klesick" <Micah@creationtidbits.com> wrote in message
    >>> news:ev65r3$i571@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>> Hi guys,
    >>>> just wondering your opinion on website I just created for a client.
    >>>> http://www.cedarglenbees.com
    >>>> He really likes it, but he is not happy because it is not top on
    >>>> Google.
    >>>> The site has been up for about 2 months, not enough time to hardly
    >>>> get
    >>>> on google, let alone top. He says he had a friend check it for him to
    >>>> see what was wrong and way his site is not in Google. Here is what his
    >>>> friend said: "He claims the problem is in the addressing and I will not
    >>>> show up until this is corrected. He says there are some errors that
    >>>> prevent it from happening. Could you check this out and fix it for
    >>>> me?".
    >>>> I do not think the guy knows what he is talking about, as it is
    >>>> included
    >>>> in Google, just pretty low, but what is to expect for a 2 month old
    >>>> site?
    >>>> Here is what my client wants: "If this is fact you owe me a discount
    >>>> this lack of exposure may be costing us sales." I am going to email
    >>>> him
    >>>> and say 'Whatever', but thought I would get your thoughts first.
    >>>> I have submitted XML sitemaps, submitted to Google, MSN, and some
    >>>> others.
    >>>> Micah
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.learnNOF.creationtidbits.com
    >>>> tutorials on NOF
    >>>

    >




  7. #37
    Micah Klesick
    Guest

    Default Re: what do I say?

    Mike C wrote:
    > Oop's sorry my appologies, either way enjoyed your constructive advice.
    >
    > Mike C
    >
    > Ps I am a hobby web person, I do one for the presence of my small
    > consultancy firm, and one for Val who loves her Afghan hounds, the first web
    > site (my business) is used mainly by one major client who uses the secure
    > portion for some technical services I design for their use, I tend to have
    > 100% of my business from word of mouth, so presence for contact is all that
    > is needed, it is being re vamped at the moment for contact forms and the
    > like but you can see it at http://www.tsi-consultants.co.uk , the hobby site
    > again with both sites all the drawings and graphics I do myself, if you
    > follow even one of the links on the afghan web site you will see that the
    > viewers are prety Naff at web design, so nothing to hard for them to
    > understand or follow, for example I know from talking to them that they
    > never use the side pannel for web search etc, they hate scrolling and tend
    > to use one size of view, sad but true, no imagination, Vals web site
    > http://www.tulakhounds.co.uk
    >
    > Mike C
    >


    You would be surprised by the amount people like that. My dad has a
    produce business and some of the people hardly can navigate it.
    Micah

  8. #38
    John M Reynolds
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips

    Like Water spider said, content is important. You can up the informative
    content of the site easily with several well placed Did You Know sections
    that give some tidbits of info on bees. The site can also link to other
    sites for more bee information, but make sure it says to check out these
    sites and come back to get your supplies.

    You could keep the honey comb but use it as a banner like the
    http://weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/city/p..._metric_e.html page.

  9. #39
    Waterspider
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips


    "John M Reynolds" <ju76yhnm@vianet.ca> wrote in message
    newsp.tqirmqh0antjqu@amd133...
    > Like Water spider said, content is important. You can up the informative
    > content of the site easily with several well placed Did You Know sections
    > that give some tidbits of info on bees. The site can also link to other
    > sites for more bee information, but make sure it says to check out these
    > sites and come back to get your supplies.


    Yes, links! Good idea, John; people love links. To keep them on your site
    rather than have them surf off to never return, put "target=blank" between
    tags when you link (use the HTML button). This way, the linked site opens in
    a new window and the original site isn't lost.

    > You could keep the honey comb but use it as a banner like the
    > http://weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/city/p..._metric_e.html page.




  10. #40
    Mike C
    Guest

    Default Re: Waterspider Web Design Tips

    Just a note a nice banner would do to re enforce the product, what I mean is
    when anyone goes on a site the first few seconds are familiarisation, if
    they feel they have found the correct site they will brows and hopefully
    buy, I put together some of my images to show you waht I mean a bit naf, but
    it shows the theme, maybe use something a little less bright than those in
    my example

    Mike C

    "Waterspider" <nospam@all.com> wrote in message
    news:evbarh$5t712@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com. ..
    > Reply interspersed.
    >
    > "Micah Klesick" <Micah@creationtidbits.com> wrote ...
    >> Waterspider wrote:
    >>> "Micah Klesick" <Micah@creationtidbits.com> wrote
    >>>> Meanwhile, what do you guys think of the design?
    >>>> Micah
    >>>>
    >>> Well, you asked.
    >>> Background - Use a solid-colour background, i.e. pale yellow or even
    >>> white. The one you've got ends before the right edge of my screen and
    >>> disappears before the bottom of some of the pages. I know it's a
    >>> honeycomb, but it looks like some kind of plastic filter or screen.
    >>> Colour - No, I didn't spell it wrong, I'm Canadian. <g>
    >>> A contrasting colour, used sparingly, might be attractive. You could try
    >>> blue or green, but not red or orange. You need something to get away
    >>> from
    >>> that jaundiced glow you've got going on now with all the different
    >>> shades
    >>> of yellow.
    >>> Graphic Elements - The banner and nav bar do not do their job of framing
    >>> the content of the page, rather they get lost amongst the confusion of
    >>> all the other stuff. Perhaps choose larger banner and menu button
    >>> images,
    >>> and definitely don't put anything above them. Things seem to be placed
    >>> helter-skelter. Lose the boxes, let the text appear on the background.
    >>> Right now the text is running right up to the edge of the boxes, making
    >>> the page look crowded and way too busy.
    >>> Photos - Delete or at least change the mouseover text on Ginger's photo
    >>> ("Early Property 022"). Yeah, a couple of the others are weird too. Keep
    >>> your photos consistent, i.e. don't have one with rounded corners and
    >>> others square, some with borders and some without. "Ray Tammy Dan" is a
    >>> nice photo, but who are these people, what do they have to do with
    >>> beekeeping and why is their photo on the website? The viewer should not
    >>> be asking himself these questions. Finally, if I was thinking honey, I
    >>> wouldn't want to see a photo of an aging, long-haired dog but I don't
    >>> think you want to mention this to your clients. Macro photos of bees on
    >>> flowers would be great though.
    >>> Content - Proofread again. You've got a couple of typos and there
    >>> shouldn't be any on such a small site that you've been paid for. Why is
    >>> Agribusiness Management Company capitalized? I think the site would be
    >>> more effective with more information on honeybees.
    >>> General Layout - There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason to how
    >>> you've placed things on pages. Draw (on paper) an outline of the visual
    >>> components of the page, and remember that the viewer's eye will travel
    >>> from the upper left corner to the lower right. So, you want the most
    >>> "weight" along the left margin to keep his eye (his attention) from
    >>> zooming right off the page. A stronger nav bar would accomplish this,
    >>> then you could place your credit card logos and your own copyright
    >>> notice
    >>> underneath.
    >>> To get you in the mood, here's a cool page I found while looking at
    >>> other
    >>> beekeeper websites:
    >>> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/alien...media/bee.html
    >>> Finally, I think you've got a good handle on NOF; everything seems to
    >>> work well, but I think you have to do just a bit of studying up on
    >>> design
    >>> principles and writing for the web if you're going to be turning this
    >>> into a business. Good luck, and please don't take any of this blather
    >>> personally. It's merely my opinion, and you did ask for it. <g>

    >> thanks for the thoughts and ideas. Fact is, I have tried about 75% of
    >> everything you said. The website is set up exactly like they wanted it.
    >> A
    >> little annoying to me at times, but I try and suggest, then I do what
    >> they
    >> want. <g>

    >
    > It's sooo difficult to tell a client that he's clueless about web design
    > or
    > copywriting. Same thing happens with hardcopy publishing-- "I'm paying for
    > this ad, and this is what I want!" I have scars on my tongue from biting
    > it
    > so often. <g>
    >
    >> I totally agree on the dog, but he insisted on it.

    >
    > LOL, smelly old dog hair in a jar of sticky honey. I feel mean for saying
    > that (I love animals), but the association is all wrong.
    >
    >> If you had read the text on the supplier page you would know who Tammy,
    >> Ray and Dan are. <g>

    >
    > How can you be sure that all your viewers will do this?
    >
    >> I will check out the text again.
    >> The thing about this site is that it is not ABOUT beekeeping, it is about
    >> beekeeping supplies, so he does not think that it need much info on
    >> beekeeping itself.

    >
    > Ahhh, the secrets of sales! Good content would convince the viewer that
    > (the
    > company) is an authority on the subject, and would keep the viewer on the
    > site longer. He might even bookmark it to refer back to the info, or to
    > refer the site to his beekeeping buddies.
    >
    >> On the layout, I have put pics where he wanted them and how. <g> I tried
    >> to place them in certain spots, etc. but he had too many and knew where
    >> he
    >> wanted them. <g>

    >
    > <Waterspider thumps Micah's client over the head with a big stick,
    > repeatedly.>
    >
    >> I found that PBS website a long time ago, never did watch all of it
    >> though, as it not very good for learning anything. A lot of it is not so
    >> good info. Cool layout though.

    >
    > Hey, you've just convinced yourself that content *is* important! <g>
    > I did learn a few things about the different parts of a bee's body, which
    > I
    > found interesting. Still, the layout is the best part of the site.
    >
    >> On the good handle with NOF you are right. <g>
    >> I have a tutorial website on NOF that I started about 1-2 months ago.
    >> http://www.learnNOF.creationtidbits.com
    >>
    >> I will be putting some of your thoughts in, at least the ones they like.
    >> Thanks,
    >> Micah
    >>

    > Hope it goes well, and I look forward to seeing the revision.
    >
    > All the best,
    >
    > Waterspider
    >
    >






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