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  1. #1
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built about
    10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    (www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    (current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far). I
    am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I am
    thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.

    First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't want to
    learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to be able
    to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with Word, Excel,
    Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want in the print world
    or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want to design in WYSIWYG
    and have NOF generate code that displays correctly. I also want to be able
    to create the features found on all but the most complicated sites (photo
    galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from thumbnails, the odd flash
    effect, etc.). If a client wants something really slick in terms of design
    or graphics, I won't take the job.

    Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    publish the same way.
    2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I don't
    want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design view but
    continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go away.
    3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but when I
    come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all over the
    browser and in the design view.
    4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want them.
    I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I am
    trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes text on
    other pages that are finished.
    6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have to
    resize objects and bring the right margin back.

    All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just give
    up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over again. I
    find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of my time fixing
    broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so far.

    NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three before
    they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot or link. I
    usually send them a template with the original ticket and descibe the
    problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable CSS" when it was
    already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a layout region" which
    didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to "resolved." So after
    five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the site and I still don't
    have an answer.

    So,
    1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend it
    learn what I need to know?
    3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?

    Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.

    Michael


  2. #2
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Chuck_=ABBeyondFusion=BB?=
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael,

    Let's take your questions first...

    1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.

    No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest available
    update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't perfect in some
    areas, but buggy, it's not.

    > 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend it
    > learn what I need to know?


    Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other programs..
    like Word.

    You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    browserws and all situations.

    Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent results.

    Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3. When the
    lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.

    > 3) Do I need to learn HTML?


    Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The better you
    know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.

    Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help you get
    farther along.

    > 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?


    If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a much
    steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete access to
    the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like DW.

    --
    Chuck Joslin
    BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    www.beyondfusion.com

    Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com

    "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built about
    >10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far). I
    >am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I am
    >thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >
    > First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't want
    > to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to be
    > able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with Word,
    > Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want in the
    > print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want to
    > design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays correctly. I
    > also want to be able to create the features found on all but the most
    > complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    > thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    > really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >
    > Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    > 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    > publish the same way.
    > 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    > don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    > view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    > away.
    > 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but when
    > I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all over the
    > browser and in the design view.
    > 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    > rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    > them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    > 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I am
    > trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes text on
    > other pages that are finished.
    > 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    > to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >
    > All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    > give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    > again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of my
    > time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    > far.
    >
    > NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    > before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot or
    > link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and descibe
    > the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable CSS" when
    > it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a layout region"
    > which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to "resolved." So
    > after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the site and I still
    > don't have an answer.
    >
    > So,
    > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    > 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend it
    > learn what I need to know?
    > 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    > 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >
    > Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >
    > Michael



  3. #3
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Thanks for your help Chuck.

    I always use the latest updates.
    I rarely bring in formatted content, but I will only bring in unformatted
    content in the future. Is it best to cut and paste or import a document
    using the NOF import document function? Is it OK to import a table or
    spreadsheet?
    I am using Dynamic Layout with CSS and compatibility with both browsers. I
    read a design tip that it is best to use variable font sizes to allow users
    to resize as they wish (I think it was an accesibility tip), so this site is
    using % fonts. It makes sense that px fonts will help preserve layout
    intentions.

    I understand that Dreamweaver is an HTML editor, but I also understand that
    it is a WYSIWYG code generator as well. It has the added advantage of being
    able to modify an existing site in WYSIWYG mode without importing into a
    proprietary format, which would be an asset if a client wants me to take
    over their site. But I hate learning curve and I might be half-way there
    with NOF, so that's a reason to stick with NOF.

    I trust your experience when you say that NOF is not buggy (although I don't
    think it should hang 3-4 times a day). So that must mean that I just don't
    understand why it isn't functioning the way I expect it to. Hence I need to
    learn to use it the way it was intended. How do I do that?

    It also makes sense that if I understood how a website was written in HTML
    with CSS, then NOF might make more sense to me. Any recommendations to
    learn HTML, CSS and PHP?

    Michael


    "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    news:g2osrv$ds72@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Michael,
    >
    > Let's take your questions first...
    >
    > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >
    > No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest available
    > update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't perfect in some
    > areas, but buggy, it's not.
    >
    >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    >> it learn what I need to know?

    >
    > Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other programs..
    > like Word.
    >
    > You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    > browserws and all situations.
    >
    > Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent results.
    >
    > Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    > Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3. When
    > the lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.
    >
    >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?

    >
    > Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The better
    > you know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.
    >
    > Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help you
    > get farther along.
    >
    >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?

    >
    > If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a much
    > steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete access to
    > the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like DW.
    >
    > --
    > Chuck Joslin
    > BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    > www.beyondfusion.com
    >
    > Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    >
    > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built about
    >>10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far). I
    >>am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I
    >>am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >>
    >> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't want
    >> to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to
    >> be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with
    >> Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want in
    >> the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want
    >> to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays correctly.
    >> I also want to be able to create the features found on all but the most
    >> complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    >> thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    >> really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >>
    >> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    >> publish the same way.
    >> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    >> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    >> away.
    >> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >> over the browser and in the design view.
    >> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    >> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    >> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    >> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes text
    >> on other pages that are finished.
    >> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    >> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>
    >> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    >> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of my
    >> time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    >> far.
    >>
    >> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot or
    >> link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    >> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    >> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>
    >> So,
    >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    >> it learn what I need to know?
    >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>
    >> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>
    >> Michael

    >



  4. #4
    Nancy O
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael,
    There's no such animal as a wysiwyg web authoring program. The web is
    nothing like a printed page.

    DW design view renders an approximation of what your layout looks like in
    IE. NOF does the same thing. But when you test your pages in Safari,
    Firefox, or Opera, you may see some huge differences. Browser variability,
    end user settings, text-sizes and other variables which you cannot control
    makes it impossible for a web authoring program to be truly wysiwyg. Drag &
    drop is a convenient feature to be sure, but it comes at a price.
    Personally, I use DW for some sites and NOF for others. Different tools for
    different projects.


    --Nancy O.
    Alt-Web Design & Publishing
    www.alt-web.com

    "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    news:g2rocq$ndh4@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Thanks for your help Chuck.
    >
    > I always use the latest updates.
    > I rarely bring in formatted content, but I will only bring in unformatted
    > content in the future. Is it best to cut and paste or import a document
    > using the NOF import document function? Is it OK to import a table or
    > spreadsheet?
    > I am using Dynamic Layout with CSS and compatibility with both browsers.

    I
    > read a design tip that it is best to use variable font sizes to allow

    users
    > to resize as they wish (I think it was an accesibility tip), so this site

    is
    > using % fonts. It makes sense that px fonts will help preserve layout
    > intentions.
    >
    > I understand that Dreamweaver is an HTML editor, but I also understand

    that
    > it is a WYSIWYG code generator as well. It has the added advantage of

    being
    > able to modify an existing site in WYSIWYG mode without importing into a
    > proprietary format, which would be an asset if a client wants me to take
    > over their site. But I hate learning curve and I might be half-way there
    > with NOF, so that's a reason to stick with NOF.
    >
    > I trust your experience when you say that NOF is not buggy (although I

    don't
    > think it should hang 3-4 times a day). So that must mean that I just

    don't
    > understand why it isn't functioning the way I expect it to. Hence I need

    to
    > learn to use it the way it was intended. How do I do that?
    >
    > It also makes sense that if I understood how a website was written in HTML
    > with CSS, then NOF might make more sense to me. Any recommendations to
    > learn HTML, CSS and PHP?
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    > "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2osrv$ds72@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > > Michael,
    > >
    > > Let's take your questions first...
    > >
    > > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    > >
    > > No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest available
    > > update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't perfect in

    some
    > > areas, but buggy, it's not.
    > >
    > >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    > >> it learn what I need to know?

    > >
    > > Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other

    programs..
    > > like Word.
    > >
    > > You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    > > browserws and all situations.
    > >
    > > Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent

    results.
    > >
    > > Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    > > Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3. When
    > > the lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.
    > >
    > >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?

    > >
    > > Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The better
    > > you know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.
    > >
    > > Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help you
    > > get farther along.
    > >
    > >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?

    > >
    > > If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a much
    > > steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete access

    to
    > > the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like DW.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Chuck Joslin
    > > BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    > > www.beyondfusion.com
    > >
    > > Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    > >
    > > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    > > news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > >>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built

    about
    > >>10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    > >>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    > >>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so

    I
    > >>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    > >>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    > >>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).

    I
    > >>am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I
    > >>am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    > >>
    > >> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't

    want
    > >> to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to
    > >> be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with
    > >> Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want

    in
    > >> the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want
    > >> to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays

    correctly.
    > >> I also want to be able to create the features found on all but the most
    > >> complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    > >> thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    > >> really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    > >>
    > >> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    > >> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview

    or
    > >> publish the same way.
    > >> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    > >> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in

    design
    > >> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    > >> away.
    > >> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    > >> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    > >> over the browser and in the design view.
    > >> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns

    or
    > >> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    > >> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    > >> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    > >> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes

    text
    > >> on other pages that are finished.
    > >> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I

    have
    > >> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    > >>
    > >> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    > >> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    > >> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of

    my
    > >> time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    > >> far.
    > >>
    > >> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    > >> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot

    or
    > >> link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    > >> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    > >> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    > >> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    > >> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    > >> site and I still don't have an answer.
    > >>
    > >> So,
    > >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like

    it.
    > >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    > >> it learn what I need to know?
    > >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    > >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    > >>
    > >> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    > >>
    > >> Michael

    > >

    >




  5. #5
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Thanks Nancy, great advice as always. It's interesting that the title of
    the NOF homepage reads:

    NetObjects Fusion: WYSIWYG Website Design Software

    I see your point though. I'm buying the marketing copy (even though I write
    marketing copy for a living) and not understanding the reality.


    "Nancy O" <nancyoshea1@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
    news:g2s21j$oi35@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Michael,
    > There's no such animal as a wysiwyg web authoring program. The web is
    > nothing like a printed page.
    >
    > DW design view renders an approximation of what your layout looks like in
    > IE. NOF does the same thing. But when you test your pages in Safari,
    > Firefox, or Opera, you may see some huge differences. Browser
    > variability,
    > end user settings, text-sizes and other variables which you cannot control
    > makes it impossible for a web authoring program to be truly wysiwyg. Drag
    > &
    > drop is a convenient feature to be sure, but it comes at a price.
    > Personally, I use DW for some sites and NOF for others. Different tools
    > for
    > different projects.
    >
    >
    > --Nancy O.
    > Alt-Web Design & Publishing
    > www.alt-web.com
    >
    > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2rocq$ndh4@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Thanks for your help Chuck.
    >>
    >> I always use the latest updates.
    >> I rarely bring in formatted content, but I will only bring in unformatted
    >> content in the future. Is it best to cut and paste or import a document
    >> using the NOF import document function? Is it OK to import a table or
    >> spreadsheet?
    >> I am using Dynamic Layout with CSS and compatibility with both browsers.

    > I
    >> read a design tip that it is best to use variable font sizes to allow

    > users
    >> to resize as they wish (I think it was an accesibility tip), so this site

    > is
    >> using % fonts. It makes sense that px fonts will help preserve layout
    >> intentions.
    >>
    >> I understand that Dreamweaver is an HTML editor, but I also understand

    > that
    >> it is a WYSIWYG code generator as well. It has the added advantage of

    > being
    >> able to modify an existing site in WYSIWYG mode without importing into a
    >> proprietary format, which would be an asset if a client wants me to take
    >> over their site. But I hate learning curve and I might be half-way there
    >> with NOF, so that's a reason to stick with NOF.
    >>
    >> I trust your experience when you say that NOF is not buggy (although I

    > don't
    >> think it should hang 3-4 times a day). So that must mean that I just

    > don't
    >> understand why it isn't functioning the way I expect it to. Hence I need

    > to
    >> learn to use it the way it was intended. How do I do that?
    >>
    >> It also makes sense that if I understood how a website was written in
    >> HTML
    >> with CSS, then NOF might make more sense to me. Any recommendations to
    >> learn HTML, CSS and PHP?
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >>
    >> "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2osrv$ds72@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> > Michael,
    >> >
    >> > Let's take your questions first...
    >> >
    >> > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like
    >> > it.
    >> >
    >> > No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest available
    >> > update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't perfect in

    > some
    >> > areas, but buggy, it's not.
    >> >
    >> >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >> >> recommend
    >> >> it learn what I need to know?
    >> >
    >> > Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other

    > programs..
    >> > like Word.
    >> >
    >> > You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    >> > browserws and all situations.
    >> >
    >> > Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent

    > results.
    >> >
    >> > Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    >> > Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3. When
    >> > the lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.
    >> >
    >> >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >> >
    >> > Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The
    >> > better
    >> > you know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.
    >> >
    >> > Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help you
    >> > get farther along.
    >> >
    >> >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >> >
    >> > If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a much
    >> > steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete access

    > to
    >> > the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like DW.
    >> >
    >> > --
    >> > Chuck Joslin
    >> > BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    >> > www.beyondfusion.com
    >> >
    >> > Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    >> >
    >> > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> > news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> >>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built

    > about
    >> >>10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >> >>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I
    >> >>started
    >> >>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so

    > I
    >> >>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >> >>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and
    >> >>layout
    >> >>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).

    > I
    >> >>am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that
    >> >>I
    >> >>am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >> >>
    >> >> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't

    > want
    >> >> to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem
    >> >> to
    >> >> be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with
    >> >> Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want

    > in
    >> >> the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I
    >> >> want
    >> >> to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays

    > correctly.
    >> >> I also want to be able to create the features found on all but the
    >> >> most
    >> >> complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    >> >> thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    >> >> really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >> >>
    >> >> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >> >> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview

    > or
    >> >> publish the same way.
    >> >> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >> >> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in

    > design
    >> >> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it
    >> >> go
    >> >> away.
    >> >> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >> >> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >> >> over the browser and in the design view.
    >> >> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns

    > or
    >> >> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    >> >> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >> >> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes
    >> >> I
    >> >> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes

    > text
    >> >> on other pages that are finished.
    >> >> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I

    > have
    >> >> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >> >>
    >> >> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I
    >> >> just
    >> >> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >> >> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of

    > my
    >> >> time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    >> >> far.
    >> >>
    >> >> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >> >> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot

    > or
    >> >> link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >> >> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >> >> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >> >> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status
    >> >> to
    >> >> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix
    >> >> the
    >> >> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >> >>
    >> >> So,
    >> >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like

    > it.
    >> >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >> >> recommend
    >> >> it learn what I need to know?
    >> >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >> >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >> >>
    >> >> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >> >>
    >> >> Michael
    >> >

    >>

    >
    >



  6. #6
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael wrote:
    > Thanks for your help Chuck.
    >
    > I always use the latest updates.
    > I rarely bring in formatted content, but I will only bring in unformatted
    > content in the future.


    only the one time you inserted formatted text from Word may have
    corrupted your project

    > Is it best to cut and paste or import a document
    > using the NOF import document function?


    no. cut and paste. the best is to use the Windows Editor to clean the
    text. but I use the feature "Edit > Paste Special > Unformatted Text". I
    always use this although I have "paste unformatted text" checked as
    standard.

    Most of the times I write directly in NOF.

    > Is it OK to import a table or
    > spreadsheet?


    I have very small experience with importing documents, tables and
    spreadsheets into NOF. just don't do it. NOF is not constructed for
    these type of things.

    Peter

    > I am using Dynamic Layout with CSS and compatibility with both browsers. I
    > read a design tip that it is best to use variable font sizes to allow users
    > to resize as they wish (I think it was an accesibility tip), so this
    > site is
    > using % fonts. It makes sense that px fonts will help preserve layout
    > intentions.
    >
    > I understand that Dreamweaver is an HTML editor, but I also understand that
    > it is a WYSIWYG code generator as well. It has the added advantage of
    > being
    > able to modify an existing site in WYSIWYG mode without importing into a
    > proprietary format, which would be an asset if a client wants me to take
    > over their site. But I hate learning curve and I might be half-way there
    > with NOF, so that's a reason to stick with NOF.
    >
    > I trust your experience when you say that NOF is not buggy (although I
    > don't
    > think it should hang 3-4 times a day). So that must mean that I just don't
    > understand why it isn't functioning the way I expect it to. Hence I
    > need to
    > learn to use it the way it was intended. How do I do that?
    >
    > It also makes sense that if I understood how a website was written in HTML
    > with CSS, then NOF might make more sense to me. Any recommendations to
    > learn HTML, CSS and PHP?
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    > "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2osrv$ds72@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Michael,
    >>
    >> Let's take your questions first...
    >>
    >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >>
    >> No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest
    >> available update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't
    >> perfect in some areas, but buggy, it's not.
    >>
    >>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >>> recommend it learn what I need to know?

    >>
    >> Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other
    >> programs.. like Word.
    >>
    >> You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    >> browserws and all situations.
    >>
    >> Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent
    >> results.
    >>
    >> Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    >> Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3.
    >> When the lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.
    >>
    >>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?

    >>
    >> Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The
    >> better you know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.
    >>
    >> Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help
    >> you get farther along.
    >>
    >>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?

    >>
    >> If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a
    >> much steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete
    >> access to the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like
    >> DW.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Chuck Joslin
    >> BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    >> www.beyondfusion.com
    >>
    >> Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    >>
    >> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>> I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built
    >>> about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>> (www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I
    >>> started building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page
    >>> sites, so I developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites
    >>> I built (for clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size,
    >>> graphics, and layout (current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150
    >>> hours to get this far). I am now so frustrated with how long it
    >>> takes to build an NOF site, that I am thinking of jumping to
    >>> Dreamweaver.
    >>>
    >>> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't
    >>> want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I
    >>> seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no
    >>> trouble with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do
    >>> whatever I want in the print world or the presentation world. I
    >>> bought NOF because I want to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate
    >>> code that displays correctly. I also want to be able to create the
    >>> features found on all but the most complicated sites (photo
    >>> galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from thumbnails, the odd
    >>> flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something really slick in
    >>> terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >>>
    >>> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >>> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview
    >>> or publish the same way.
    >>> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >>> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in
    >>> design view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't
    >>> make it go away.
    >>> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >>> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >>> over the browser and in the design view.
    >>> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns
    >>> or rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I
    >>> want them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >>> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes
    >>> I am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but
    >>> changes text on other pages that are finished.
    >>> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I
    >>> have to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>>
    >>> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I
    >>> just give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start
    >>> all over again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site
    >>> and 90% of my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a
    >>> productivity tool so far.
    >>>
    >>> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >>> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template,
    >>> screenshot or link. I usually send them a template with the original
    >>> ticket and descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back
    >>> like "enable CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I
    >>> get "use a layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the
    >>> ticket status to "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40
    >>> hours trying to fix the site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>>
    >>> So,
    >>> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >>> recommend it learn what I need to know?
    >>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>>
    >>> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>>
    >>> Michael

    >>

    >


  7. #7
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael,

    some of your complaints seem to derive from overlapping elements. If you
    need to have them in special cases you must set HTML output to fixed
    page layout. But you should cling to dynamic page layout in most cases.

    Also, a layout that is too complex will cause even NOF to not display
    the objects "correctly" aligned. I observed that too from time to time,
    especially when there are many objects on the same horizontal level. But
    that is not a limitation of NOF but of HTML. Try to keep the layout
    clean and simple. That's the trend of web design anyways.

    Don't use too many layout regions. I rarely use them at all.

    As Chuck pointed out, _never_ insert formatted text over the clipboard.

    Keep text formatting also as simple as possible. For instance on this page
    http://www.nashcanspas.com/html/about_us.html
    only in the main area, I see two different fonts, two different weights,
    two different alignments. The master border comes with an additional
    font. (Never use Comic Sans at all.)

    I don't use CSS formatting of text consistently but I'm sure it would
    also clear things for you. Use px-sizing.

    Don't overdo with tables. NOF uses tables for its layout anyway.

    Get help here before you contact tech support.

    Well, that's what I would suggest.

    I also have the impression that you work with corrupted .nod-files which
    you may have imported from version to version... Can that be? I made the
    experience it's best to stay with the NOF-version you started the
    project with. Upwards compatibility only goes so far.

    Peter



    Michael wrote:
    > I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built
    > about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    > (www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    > building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so
    > I developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    > clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    > (current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).
    > I am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that
    > I am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >
    > First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't
    > want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I
    > seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble
    > with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I
    > want in the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because
    > I want to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays
    > correctly. I also want to be able to create the features found on all
    > but the most complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo
    > enlargement from thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client
    > wants something really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't
    > take the job.
    >
    > Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    > 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    > publish the same way.
    > 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    > don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    > view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    > away.
    > 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    > when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    > over the browser and in the design view.
    > 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    > rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    > them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    > 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    > am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes
    > text on other pages that are finished.
    > 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    > to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >
    > All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    > give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    > again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of
    > my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool
    > so far.
    >
    > NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    > before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot
    > or link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    > descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    > CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    > layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    > "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    > site and I still don't have an answer.
    >
    > So,
    > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    > 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    > it learn what I need to know?
    > 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    > 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >
    > Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >
    > Michael


  8. #8
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Thanks Peter. Comments below.

    Michael

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Peter Eisenburger" <peter@eisenburger.de>
    Newsgroups: netobjects.fusion10.gen-discussion
    Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 1:29 PM
    Subject: Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.


    > Michael,
    >
    > some of your complaints seem to derive from overlapping elements. If you
    > need to have them in special cases you must set HTML output to fixed page
    > layout. But you should cling to dynamic page layout in most cases.


    >>>Not looking for overlap and I'm using dynamic.

    >
    > Also, a layout that is too complex will cause even NOF to not display the
    > objects "correctly" aligned. I observed that too from time to time,
    > especially when there are many objects on the same horizontal level. But
    > that is not a limitation of NOF but of HTML. Try to keep the layout clean
    > and simple. That's the trend of web design anyways.
    >
    > Don't use too many layout regions. I rarely use them at all.
    >
    > As Chuck pointed out, _never_ insert formatted text over the clipboard.
    >
    > Keep text formatting also as simple as possible. For instance on this page
    > http://www.nashcanspas.com/html/about_us.html
    > only in the main area, I see two different fonts, two different weights,
    > two different alignments. The master border comes with an additional font.
    > (Never use Comic Sans at all.)


    >>>What's wrong with Comic Sans?

    >
    > I don't use CSS formatting of text consistently but I'm sure it would also
    > clear things for you. Use px-sizing.
    >
    > Don't overdo with tables. NOF uses tables for its layout anyway.
    >
    >>>I tried using tables to help align objects. How do I decide when to use
    >>>a layout region, text box, or table?


    > Get help here before you contact tech support.
    >
    > Well, that's what I would suggest.
    >
    > I also have the impression that you work with corrupted .nod-files which
    > you may have imported from version to version... Can that be? I made the
    > experience it's best to stay with the NOF-version you started the project
    > with. Upwards compatibility only goes so far.


    >>>This site was created in NOF 10. I've never moved a site to new version.
    >>>I have had lots of system crashes (3-4 a day) that have recovered , but
    >>>perhaps the files were corrupted from that.

    >
    > Peter
    >



  9. #9
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael wrote:
    > Thanks Peter. Comments below.
    >
    > Michael
    >
    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Eisenburger"
    > <peter@eisenburger.de>
    > Newsgroups: netobjects.fusion10.gen-discussion
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 1:29 PM
    > Subject: Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.
    >
    >
    >> Michael,
    >>
    >> some of your complaints seem to derive from overlapping elements. If
    >> you need to have them in special cases you must set HTML output to
    >> fixed page layout. But you should cling to dynamic page layout in most
    >> cases.

    >
    >>>> Not looking for overlap and I'm using dynamic.


    didn't you notice the red exclamation marks?

    >>
    >> Also, a layout that is too complex will cause even NOF to not display
    >> the objects "correctly" aligned. I observed that too from time to
    >> time, especially when there are many objects on the same horizontal
    >> level. But that is not a limitation of NOF but of HTML. Try to keep
    >> the layout clean and simple. That's the trend of web design anyways.
    >>
    >> Don't use too many layout regions. I rarely use them at all.
    >>
    >> As Chuck pointed out, _never_ insert formatted text over the clipboard.
    >>
    >> Keep text formatting also as simple as possible. For instance on this
    >> page
    >> http://www.nashcanspas.com/html/about_us.html
    >> only in the main area, I see two different fonts, two different
    >> weights, two different alignments. The master border comes with an
    >> additional font. (Never use Comic Sans at all.)

    >
    >>>> What's wrong with Comic Sans?


    a font for childs.

    http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0...557300,00.html (German)
    http://www.bancomicsans.com/home.html
    http://www.connare.com/comic.htm

    >>
    >> I don't use CSS formatting of text consistently but I'm sure it would
    >> also clear things for you. Use px-sizing.
    >>
    >> Don't overdo with tables. NOF uses tables for its layout anyway.
    >>
    >>>> I tried using tables to help align objects. How do I decide when to
    >>>> use a layout region, text box, or table?


    the thing is too many objects clutter a page and make HTML output tricky.

    for instance I noticed students making 5 textboxes when they could as
    well have made one textbox with five paragraphs.

    see my other post above.

    Peter

    >
    >> Get help here before you contact tech support.
    >>
    >> Well, that's what I would suggest.
    >>
    >> I also have the impression that you work with corrupted .nod-files
    >> which you may have imported from version to version... Can that be? I
    >> made the experience it's best to stay with the NOF-version you started
    >> the project with. Upwards compatibility only goes so far.

    >
    >>>> This site was created in NOF 10. I've never moved a site to new
    >>>> version. I have had lots of system crashes (3-4 a day) that have
    >>>> recovered , but perhaps the files were corrupted from that.

    >>
    >> Peter
    >>

    >


  10. #10
    Dave@Web by Design, Inc.
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    I can say that your problems with NOF are not "normal". As Chuck and Pete
    indicated, there could be a number of usage issues going on. After we get
    some additional input from you, I know that there are people here, myself
    included, that would be willing to look at your site (send us a template),
    and perhaps we can spot some areas that might be causing you trouble.
    There's a lot of NOF knowledge on this board...don't give up too quickly.

    Dave



    "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built about
    >10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far). I
    >am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I am
    >thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >
    > First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't want
    > to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to be
    > able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with Word,
    > Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want in the
    > print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want to
    > design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays correctly. I
    > also want to be able to create the features found on all but the most
    > complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    > thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    > really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >
    > Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    > 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    > publish the same way.
    > 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    > don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    > view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    > away.
    > 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but when
    > I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all over the
    > browser and in the design view.
    > 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    > rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    > them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    > 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I am
    > trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes text on
    > other pages that are finished.
    > 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    > to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >
    > All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    > give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    > again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of my
    > time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    > far.
    >
    > NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    > before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot or
    > link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and descibe
    > the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable CSS" when
    > it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a layout region"
    > which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to "resolved." So
    > after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the site and I still
    > don't have an answer.
    >
    > So,
    > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    > 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend it
    > learn what I need to know?
    > 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    > 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >
    > Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >
    > Michael



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