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Thread: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

  1. #11
    Dave@Web by Design, Inc.
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Nothing conclusive so far after looking at your template (other than the
    overlapping objects on the home page). I went through your list of problems
    and tried to duplicate and/or discover a reason that you would be having a
    problem....nothing conclusive. I used NOF 10 with update #4 applied for
    these tests.

    1) As noted, overlapping objects would cause this. Didn't see anything else
    out of whack and everything previewed fine.

    2) Took a couple of your tables and added/removed borders from Table
    Properties, CSS Properties, and Object Format panel and everything worked as
    expected.

    3) Never saw this on any site or any version of NOF. Didn't see any sign of
    this while working on your site either. However, as mentioned in answer #1,
    you must be careful that objects don't overlap.....it would definitely cause
    your layout to go whacky.

    4) WYSIWYG tables have always been a challenge for NOF, however things are
    getting better (NOF 11 is the best yet). I'm not sure what "stay put" means
    to you, but if you have an example of that behavior we might be able to
    track it down. If it's a NOF problem we will report it. As mentioned in #2,
    I didn't see any border problems.

    5) Where are you trying to make these text changes? That IS a confusing area
    for NOF users (and has been pointed out to WSP multiple times). There are
    just too many places that text attributes can be set. Sounds like you might
    have been changing them in the Site Style when you say that the text changed
    on other pages. You also mentioned that sometimes text attribute changes
    where ignored....they probably weren't ignored, they were probably being
    overridden in another area. SiteStyles, CSS, and Property Panels all get
    into the act and some take priority or others in certain cases. Again, if
    you have specifics we might be able to help.

    6) This one could also be caused by overlapping objects, or layouts
    unintentionally be put in masterborders. You have to be very careful when
    dragging objects around that you don't place them outside the intended
    layout area.

    I don't know if any of this helped, but your template looks pretty solid
    from what I've seen so far.

    Dave
    www.wbdi.net


    "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built about
    >10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far). I
    >am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I am
    >thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >
    > First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't want
    > to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to be
    > able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with Word,
    > Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want in the
    > print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want to
    > design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays correctly. I
    > also want to be able to create the features found on all but the most
    > complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    > thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    > really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >
    > Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    > 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    > publish the same way.
    > 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    > don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    > view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    > away.
    > 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but when
    > I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all over the
    > browser and in the design view.
    > 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    > rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    > them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    > 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I am
    > trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes text on
    > other pages that are finished.
    > 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    > to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >
    > All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    > give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    > again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of my
    > time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    > far.
    >
    > NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    > before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot or
    > link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and descibe
    > the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable CSS" when
    > it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a layout region"
    > which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to "resolved." So
    > after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the site and I still
    > don't have an answer.
    >
    > So,
    > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    > 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend it
    > learn what I need to know?
    > 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    > 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >
    > Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >
    > Michael



  2. #12
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael wrote:
    > Thanks Peter. Comments below.
    >
    > Michael
    >
    > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Eisenburger"
    > <peter@eisenburger.de>
    > Newsgroups: netobjects.fusion10.gen-discussion
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 1:29 PM
    > Subject: Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.
    >
    >
    >> Michael,
    >>
    >> some of your complaints seem to derive from overlapping elements. If
    >> you need to have them in special cases you must set HTML output to
    >> fixed page layout. But you should cling to dynamic page layout in most
    >> cases.

    >
    >>>> Not looking for overlap and I'm using dynamic.


    didn't you notice the red exclamation marks?

    >>
    >> Also, a layout that is too complex will cause even NOF to not display
    >> the objects "correctly" aligned. I observed that too from time to
    >> time, especially when there are many objects on the same horizontal
    >> level. But that is not a limitation of NOF but of HTML. Try to keep
    >> the layout clean and simple. That's the trend of web design anyways.
    >>
    >> Don't use too many layout regions. I rarely use them at all.
    >>
    >> As Chuck pointed out, _never_ insert formatted text over the clipboard.
    >>
    >> Keep text formatting also as simple as possible. For instance on this
    >> page
    >> http://www.nashcanspas.com/html/about_us.html
    >> only in the main area, I see two different fonts, two different
    >> weights, two different alignments. The master border comes with an
    >> additional font. (Never use Comic Sans at all.)

    >
    >>>> What's wrong with Comic Sans?


    a font for childs.

    http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0...557300,00.html (German)
    http://www.bancomicsans.com/home.html
    http://www.connare.com/comic.htm

    >>
    >> I don't use CSS formatting of text consistently but I'm sure it would
    >> also clear things for you. Use px-sizing.
    >>
    >> Don't overdo with tables. NOF uses tables for its layout anyway.
    >>
    >>>> I tried using tables to help align objects. How do I decide when to
    >>>> use a layout region, text box, or table?


    the thing is too many objects clutter a page and make HTML output tricky.

    for instance I noticed students making 5 textboxes when they could as
    well have made one textbox with five paragraphs.

    see my other post above.

    Peter

    >
    >> Get help here before you contact tech support.
    >>
    >> Well, that's what I would suggest.
    >>
    >> I also have the impression that you work with corrupted .nod-files
    >> which you may have imported from version to version... Can that be? I
    >> made the experience it's best to stay with the NOF-version you started
    >> the project with. Upwards compatibility only goes so far.

    >
    >>>> This site was created in NOF 10. I've never moved a site to new
    >>>> version. I have had lots of system crashes (3-4 a day) that have
    >>>> recovered , but perhaps the files were corrupted from that.

    >>
    >> Peter
    >>

    >


  3. #13
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael wrote:
    > Thanks for your help Chuck.
    >
    > I always use the latest updates.
    > I rarely bring in formatted content, but I will only bring in unformatted
    > content in the future.


    only the one time you inserted formatted text from Word may have
    corrupted your project

    > Is it best to cut and paste or import a document
    > using the NOF import document function?


    no. cut and paste. the best is to use the Windows Editor to clean the
    text. but I use the feature "Edit > Paste Special > Unformatted Text". I
    always use this although I have "paste unformatted text" checked as
    standard.

    Most of the times I write directly in NOF.

    > Is it OK to import a table or
    > spreadsheet?


    I have very small experience with importing documents, tables and
    spreadsheets into NOF. just don't do it. NOF is not constructed for
    these type of things.

    Peter

    > I am using Dynamic Layout with CSS and compatibility with both browsers. I
    > read a design tip that it is best to use variable font sizes to allow users
    > to resize as they wish (I think it was an accesibility tip), so this
    > site is
    > using % fonts. It makes sense that px fonts will help preserve layout
    > intentions.
    >
    > I understand that Dreamweaver is an HTML editor, but I also understand that
    > it is a WYSIWYG code generator as well. It has the added advantage of
    > being
    > able to modify an existing site in WYSIWYG mode without importing into a
    > proprietary format, which would be an asset if a client wants me to take
    > over their site. But I hate learning curve and I might be half-way there
    > with NOF, so that's a reason to stick with NOF.
    >
    > I trust your experience when you say that NOF is not buggy (although I
    > don't
    > think it should hang 3-4 times a day). So that must mean that I just don't
    > understand why it isn't functioning the way I expect it to. Hence I
    > need to
    > learn to use it the way it was intended. How do I do that?
    >
    > It also makes sense that if I understood how a website was written in HTML
    > with CSS, then NOF might make more sense to me. Any recommendations to
    > learn HTML, CSS and PHP?
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    > "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2osrv$ds72@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Michael,
    >>
    >> Let's take your questions first...
    >>
    >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >>
    >> No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest
    >> available update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't
    >> perfect in some areas, but buggy, it's not.
    >>
    >>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >>> recommend it learn what I need to know?

    >>
    >> Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other
    >> programs.. like Word.
    >>
    >> You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    >> browserws and all situations.
    >>
    >> Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent
    >> results.
    >>
    >> Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    >> Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3.
    >> When the lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.
    >>
    >>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?

    >>
    >> Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The
    >> better you know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.
    >>
    >> Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help
    >> you get farther along.
    >>
    >>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?

    >>
    >> If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a
    >> much steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete
    >> access to the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like
    >> DW.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Chuck Joslin
    >> BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    >> www.beyondfusion.com
    >>
    >> Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    >>
    >> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>> I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built
    >>> about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>> (www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I
    >>> started building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page
    >>> sites, so I developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites
    >>> I built (for clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size,
    >>> graphics, and layout (current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150
    >>> hours to get this far). I am now so frustrated with how long it
    >>> takes to build an NOF site, that I am thinking of jumping to
    >>> Dreamweaver.
    >>>
    >>> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't
    >>> want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I
    >>> seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no
    >>> trouble with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do
    >>> whatever I want in the print world or the presentation world. I
    >>> bought NOF because I want to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate
    >>> code that displays correctly. I also want to be able to create the
    >>> features found on all but the most complicated sites (photo
    >>> galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from thumbnails, the odd
    >>> flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something really slick in
    >>> terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >>>
    >>> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >>> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview
    >>> or publish the same way.
    >>> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >>> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in
    >>> design view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't
    >>> make it go away.
    >>> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >>> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >>> over the browser and in the design view.
    >>> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns
    >>> or rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I
    >>> want them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >>> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes
    >>> I am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but
    >>> changes text on other pages that are finished.
    >>> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I
    >>> have to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>>
    >>> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I
    >>> just give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start
    >>> all over again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site
    >>> and 90% of my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a
    >>> productivity tool so far.
    >>>
    >>> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >>> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template,
    >>> screenshot or link. I usually send them a template with the original
    >>> ticket and descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back
    >>> like "enable CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I
    >>> get "use a layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the
    >>> ticket status to "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40
    >>> hours trying to fix the site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>>
    >>> So,
    >>> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >>> recommend it learn what I need to know?
    >>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>>
    >>> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>>
    >>> Michael

    >>

    >


  4. #14
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Dave,

    That's really interesting. There are no red circles in my page design view.

    "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    news:g2s6h2$pos1@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > One thing I noticed as soon as I opened the Home Page in design mode, is
    > that you have red circles (!) on two of you objects (text block Text121
    > and Table8). This indicates that the objects overlap and will definitely
    > cause problem #1 from your list. I'll keep looking for other issues.....
    >
    > Dave
    >
    >
    >
    > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2rqa7$ndh5@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Dave,
    >>
    >> In a way I'm glad to hear that my problems are not typical. Good for
    >> you, but still bad for me ;>). At least I am getting the impression that
    >> I didn't pick the wrong product and my learning curve hasn't been a total
    >> waste. I will send you a template. If you can spot any poor design
    >> techniques, I would be grateful.
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >> "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    >> news:g2pbeg$fi71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>I can say that your problems with NOF are not "normal". As Chuck and Pete
    >>>indicated, there could be a number of usage issues going on. After we get
    >>>some additional input from you, I know that there are people here, myself
    >>>included, that would be willing to look at your site (send us a
    >>>template), and perhaps we can spot some areas that might be causing you
    >>>trouble. There's a lot of NOF knowledge on this board...don't give up too
    >>>quickly.
    >>>
    >>> Dave
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >>> news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built
    >>>>about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>>>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >>>>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so
    >>>>I developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >>>>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >>>>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).
    >>>>I am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that
    >>>>I am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >>>>
    >>>> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't
    >>>> want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I
    >>>> seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no
    >>>> trouble with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do
    >>>> whatever I want in the print world or the presentation world. I bought
    >>>> NOF because I want to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that
    >>>> displays correctly. I also want to be able to create the features found
    >>>> on all but the most complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce,
    >>>> photo enlargement from thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a
    >>>> client wants something really slick in terms of design or graphics, I
    >>>> won't take the job.
    >>>>
    >>>> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >>>> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview
    >>>> or publish the same way.
    >>>> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >>>> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in
    >>>> design view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't
    >>>> make it go away.
    >>>> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >>>> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >>>> over the browser and in the design view.
    >>>> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns
    >>>> or rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I
    >>>> want them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >>>> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    >>>> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes
    >>>> text on other pages that are finished.
    >>>> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I
    >>>> have to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>>>
    >>>> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    >>>> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >>>> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of
    >>>> my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool
    >>>> so far.
    >>>>
    >>>> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >>>> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot
    >>>> or link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >>>> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >>>> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >>>> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    >>>> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    >>>> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>>>
    >>>> So,
    >>>> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like
    >>>> it.
    >>>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    >>>> it learn what I need to know?
    >>>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >>>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>>>
    >>>> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>>>
    >>>> Michael
    >>>

    >>

    >



  5. #15
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Thanks Nancy, great advice as always. It's interesting that the title of
    the NOF homepage reads:

    NetObjects Fusion: WYSIWYG Website Design Software

    I see your point though. I'm buying the marketing copy (even though I write
    marketing copy for a living) and not understanding the reality.


    "Nancy O" <nancyoshea1@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
    news:g2s21j$oi35@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Michael,
    > There's no such animal as a wysiwyg web authoring program. The web is
    > nothing like a printed page.
    >
    > DW design view renders an approximation of what your layout looks like in
    > IE. NOF does the same thing. But when you test your pages in Safari,
    > Firefox, or Opera, you may see some huge differences. Browser
    > variability,
    > end user settings, text-sizes and other variables which you cannot control
    > makes it impossible for a web authoring program to be truly wysiwyg. Drag
    > &
    > drop is a convenient feature to be sure, but it comes at a price.
    > Personally, I use DW for some sites and NOF for others. Different tools
    > for
    > different projects.
    >
    >
    > --Nancy O.
    > Alt-Web Design & Publishing
    > www.alt-web.com
    >
    > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2rocq$ndh4@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Thanks for your help Chuck.
    >>
    >> I always use the latest updates.
    >> I rarely bring in formatted content, but I will only bring in unformatted
    >> content in the future. Is it best to cut and paste or import a document
    >> using the NOF import document function? Is it OK to import a table or
    >> spreadsheet?
    >> I am using Dynamic Layout with CSS and compatibility with both browsers.

    > I
    >> read a design tip that it is best to use variable font sizes to allow

    > users
    >> to resize as they wish (I think it was an accesibility tip), so this site

    > is
    >> using % fonts. It makes sense that px fonts will help preserve layout
    >> intentions.
    >>
    >> I understand that Dreamweaver is an HTML editor, but I also understand

    > that
    >> it is a WYSIWYG code generator as well. It has the added advantage of

    > being
    >> able to modify an existing site in WYSIWYG mode without importing into a
    >> proprietary format, which would be an asset if a client wants me to take
    >> over their site. But I hate learning curve and I might be half-way there
    >> with NOF, so that's a reason to stick with NOF.
    >>
    >> I trust your experience when you say that NOF is not buggy (although I

    > don't
    >> think it should hang 3-4 times a day). So that must mean that I just

    > don't
    >> understand why it isn't functioning the way I expect it to. Hence I need

    > to
    >> learn to use it the way it was intended. How do I do that?
    >>
    >> It also makes sense that if I understood how a website was written in
    >> HTML
    >> with CSS, then NOF might make more sense to me. Any recommendations to
    >> learn HTML, CSS and PHP?
    >>
    >> Michael
    >>
    >>
    >> "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2osrv$ds72@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> > Michael,
    >> >
    >> > Let's take your questions first...
    >> >
    >> > 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like
    >> > it.
    >> >
    >> > No.. it isn't buggy (I'm assuming you've installed the latest available
    >> > update... initial releases always get bug-fixed). It isn't perfect in

    > some
    >> > areas, but buggy, it's not.
    >> >
    >> >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >> >> recommend
    >> >> it learn what I need to know?
    >> >
    >> > Could be. Rule 1 is don't bring in formatted content from other

    > programs..
    >> > like Word.
    >> >
    >> > You may be trying to use Fixed Layout, which doesn't work well for all
    >> > browserws and all situations.
    >> >
    >> > Dynamic Layout with CSS on and px font sizes will give consistent

    > results.
    >> >
    >> > Could be you're trying to apply what you know about other programs to
    >> > Fusion. That got me when I started using Fusion back in version 3. When
    >> > the lightbulb comes on, you'll wonder why you had problems.
    >> >
    >> >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >> >
    >> > Everyone who does web sites should learn HTML to some degree. The
    >> > better
    >> > you know it, the more you'll understand what's going on.
    >> >
    >> > Learning other things like CSS and PHP or ASP coding will also help you
    >> > get farther along.
    >> >
    >> >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >> >
    >> > If you're having trouble getting your head around Fusion, DW has a much
    >> > steeper learning curve. It's great for people who want complete access

    > to
    >> > the code. Fusion is a code generator, not a code editor like DW.
    >> >
    >> > --
    >> > Chuck Joslin
    >> > BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    >> > www.beyondfusion.com
    >> >
    >> > Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    >> >
    >> > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> > news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> >>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built

    > about
    >> >>10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >> >>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I
    >> >>started
    >> >>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so

    > I
    >> >>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >> >>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and
    >> >>layout
    >> >>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).

    > I
    >> >>am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that
    >> >>I
    >> >>am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >> >>
    >> >> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't

    > want
    >> >> to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem
    >> >> to
    >> >> be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with
    >> >> Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want

    > in
    >> >> the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I
    >> >> want
    >> >> to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays

    > correctly.
    >> >> I also want to be able to create the features found on all but the
    >> >> most
    >> >> complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    >> >> thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    >> >> really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >> >>
    >> >> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >> >> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview

    > or
    >> >> publish the same way.
    >> >> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >> >> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in

    > design
    >> >> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it
    >> >> go
    >> >> away.
    >> >> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >> >> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >> >> over the browser and in the design view.
    >> >> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns

    > or
    >> >> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    >> >> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >> >> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes
    >> >> I
    >> >> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes

    > text
    >> >> on other pages that are finished.
    >> >> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I

    > have
    >> >> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >> >>
    >> >> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I
    >> >> just
    >> >> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >> >> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of

    > my
    >> >> time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    >> >> far.
    >> >>
    >> >> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >> >> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot

    > or
    >> >> link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >> >> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >> >> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >> >> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status
    >> >> to
    >> >> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix
    >> >> the
    >> >> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >> >>
    >> >> So,
    >> >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like

    > it.
    >> >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >> >> recommend
    >> >> it learn what I need to know?
    >> >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >> >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >> >>
    >> >> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >> >>
    >> >> Michael
    >> >

    >>

    >
    >



  6. #16
    Michael
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.


    "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    news:g2seb2$pms6@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    > Nothing conclusive so far after looking at your template (other than the
    > overlapping objects on the home page). I went through your list of
    > problems and tried to duplicate and/or discover a reason that you would be
    > having a problem....nothing conclusive. I used NOF 10 with update #4
    > applied for these tests.


    Update #4? I only see an update #3 on the downloads page and my NOF says
    "no updates available"
    >
    > 1) As noted, overlapping objects would cause this. Didn't see anything
    > else out of whack and everything previewed fine.


    Very strange. I have no red exclamation marks on my design page. I do
    understand that overlapping objects cause problems, but I don't see any. It
    occurred to me that there really are overlapping objects but there is
    something wrong with my installation of NOF. I deleted and reinstalled NOF
    last week (to update #3), but that didn't help. I am using Vista though,
    which might be a difference. What is also strange is that the page is now
    displaying perfectly, yet you show overlapping objects.
    >
    > 2) Took a couple of your tables and added/removed borders from Table
    > Properties, CSS Properties, and Object Format panel and everything worked
    > as expected.


    Yes I have it working now, but it took many hours to get there.

    >
    > 3) Never saw this on any site or any version of NOF. Didn't see any sign
    > of this while working on your site either. However, as mentioned in answer
    > #1, you must be careful that objects don't overlap.....it would definitely
    > cause your layout to go whacky.


    I think the issue was that I changed the CSS text style on another page and
    somehow set a heading style to "nowrap". This threw off the layout on the
    homepage. "nowrap" causes some big problems! .

    >
    > 4) WYSIWYG tables have always been a challenge for NOF, however things are
    > getting better (NOF 11 is the best yet). I'm not sure what "stay put"
    > means to you, but if you have an example of that behavior we might be able
    > to track it down. If it's a NOF problem we will report it. As mentioned
    > in #2, I didn't see any border problems.


    I seem to have resolved the border problems in the template I sent you by
    deleteing the table and starting over. Once again, I solved the problem,
    but only with hours of wasted time.

    >
    > 5) Where are you trying to make these text changes? That IS a confusing
    > area for NOF users (and has been pointed out to WSP multiple times). There
    > are just too many places that text attributes can be set. Sounds like you
    > might have been changing them in the Site Style when you say that the text
    > changed on other pages. You also mentioned that sometimes text attribute
    > changes where ignored....they probably weren't ignored, they were probably
    > being overridden in another area. SiteStyles, CSS, and Property Panels all
    > get into the act and some take priority or others in certain cases. Again,
    > if you have specifics we might be able to help.


    I think that is the issue. I make a change on the page that appears to be
    ignored, but really what is happening is that the attributes are being
    overridden somewhere else. I agree that NOF has too many places to set text
    attributes and it gets really confusing. I am going to have to learn how NOF
    sets priorities and try to adhere to their somewhat abscure system.

    > 6) This one could also be caused by overlapping objects, or layouts
    > unintentionally be put in masterborders. You have to be very careful when
    > dragging objects around that you don't place them outside the intended
    > layout area.


    I understand overlapping objects and masterborder issues, so that is not my
    problem. It's when I insert or drag an object into another object or layout
    area that is bigger than the space I have planned for it, it moves out the
    right margin. Sometimes it is immediately obvious what has happened (when
    a 750px page is suddenly 1200px), but othertimes it is just a few pixels
    caused by outlines or borders. I don't notice it immediately, but when I
    finish the page, it takes me a while figure out where the problem is. It
    would be nice if NOF gave a warning message that what I am doing would
    expand the right margin. Alternatively, it would be nice if I could lock
    the right margin so that it expands down not right. Sound like an
    enhancement request.

    >
    > I don't know if any of this helped, but your template looks pretty solid
    > from what I've seen so far.


    Thanks Dave. I think I am seeing what NOF's limitations are and what I need
    to learn to use it effectively. I'll have a look at the tutorials and the
    manual to see if I can figure it out how to layout pages that cause less
    problem

    >
    > Dave
    > www.wbdi.net
    >
    >
    > "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    > news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built about
    >>10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far). I
    >>am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that I
    >>am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >>
    >> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't want
    >> to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I seem to
    >> be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble with
    >> Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I want in
    >> the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because I want
    >> to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays correctly.
    >> I also want to be able to create the features found on all but the most
    >> complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from
    >> thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something
    >> really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >>
    >> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    >> publish the same way.
    >> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    >> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    >> away.
    >> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >> over the browser and in the design view.
    >> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    >> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    >> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    >> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes text
    >> on other pages that are finished.
    >> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    >> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>
    >> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    >> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of my
    >> time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool so
    >> far.
    >>
    >> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot or
    >> link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    >> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    >> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>
    >> So,
    >> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    >> it learn what I need to know?
    >> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>
    >> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>
    >> Michael

    >



  7. #17
    Dave@Web by Design, Inc.
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Yes, update #4 has been in the pre-release area for months now (don't know
    why they don't move it over). You really should have it, many issues were
    resolved.
    http://www.netobjects.com/html/pre-release.html


    Dave



    "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    news:g2u5go$2m58@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >
    > "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    > news:g2seb2$pms6@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Nothing conclusive so far after looking at your template (other than the
    >> overlapping objects on the home page). I went through your list of
    >> problems and tried to duplicate and/or discover a reason that you would
    >> be having a problem....nothing conclusive. I used NOF 10 with update #4
    >> applied for these tests.

    >
    > Update #4? I only see an update #3 on the downloads page and my NOF says
    > "no updates available"
    >>
    >> 1) As noted, overlapping objects would cause this. Didn't see anything
    >> else out of whack and everything previewed fine.

    >
    > Very strange. I have no red exclamation marks on my design page. I do
    > understand that overlapping objects cause problems, but I don't see any.
    > It occurred to me that there really are overlapping objects but there is
    > something wrong with my installation of NOF. I deleted and reinstalled
    > NOF last week (to update #3), but that didn't help. I am using Vista
    > though, which might be a difference. What is also strange is that the
    > page is now displaying perfectly, yet you show overlapping objects.
    >>
    >> 2) Took a couple of your tables and added/removed borders from Table
    >> Properties, CSS Properties, and Object Format panel and everything worked
    >> as expected.

    >
    > Yes I have it working now, but it took many hours to get there.
    >
    >>
    >> 3) Never saw this on any site or any version of NOF. Didn't see any sign
    >> of this while working on your site either. However, as mentioned in
    >> answer #1, you must be careful that objects don't overlap.....it would
    >> definitely cause your layout to go whacky.

    >
    > I think the issue was that I changed the CSS text style on another page
    > and somehow set a heading style to "nowrap". This threw off the layout on
    > the homepage. "nowrap" causes some big problems! .
    >
    >>
    >> 4) WYSIWYG tables have always been a challenge for NOF, however things
    >> are getting better (NOF 11 is the best yet). I'm not sure what "stay
    >> put" means to you, but if you have an example of that behavior we might
    >> be able to track it down. If it's a NOF problem we will report it. As
    >> mentioned in #2, I didn't see any border problems.

    >
    > I seem to have resolved the border problems in the template I sent you by
    > deleteing the table and starting over. Once again, I solved the problem,
    > but only with hours of wasted time.
    >
    >>
    >> 5) Where are you trying to make these text changes? That IS a confusing
    >> area for NOF users (and has been pointed out to WSP multiple times).
    >> There are just too many places that text attributes can be set. Sounds
    >> like you might have been changing them in the Site Style when you say
    >> that the text changed on other pages. You also mentioned that sometimes
    >> text attribute changes where ignored....they probably weren't ignored,
    >> they were probably being overridden in another area. SiteStyles, CSS, and
    >> Property Panels all get into the act and some take priority or others in
    >> certain cases. Again, if you have specifics we might be able to help.

    >
    > I think that is the issue. I make a change on the page that appears to be
    > ignored, but really what is happening is that the attributes are being
    > overridden somewhere else. I agree that NOF has too many places to set
    > text attributes and it gets really confusing. I am going to have to learn
    > how NOF sets priorities and try to adhere to their somewhat abscure
    > system.
    >
    >> 6) This one could also be caused by overlapping objects, or layouts
    >> unintentionally be put in masterborders. You have to be very careful when
    >> dragging objects around that you don't place them outside the intended
    >> layout area.

    >
    > I understand overlapping objects and masterborder issues, so that is not
    > my problem. It's when I insert or drag an object into another object or
    > layout area that is bigger than the space I have planned for it, it moves
    > out the right margin. Sometimes it is immediately obvious what has
    > happened (when a 750px page is suddenly 1200px), but othertimes it is
    > just a few pixels caused by outlines or borders. I don't notice it
    > immediately, but when I finish the page, it takes me a while figure out
    > where the problem is. It would be nice if NOF gave a warning message that
    > what I am doing would expand the right margin. Alternatively, it would be
    > nice if I could lock the right margin so that it expands down not right.
    > Sound like an enhancement request.
    >
    >>
    >> I don't know if any of this helped, but your template looks pretty solid
    >> from what I've seen so far.

    >
    > Thanks Dave. I think I am seeing what NOF's limitations are and what I
    > need to learn to use it effectively. I'll have a look at the tutorials
    > and the manual to see if I can figure it out how to layout pages that
    > cause less problem
    >
    >>
    >> Dave
    >> www.wbdi.net
    >>
    >>
    >> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built
    >>>about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >>>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >>>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >>>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >>>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).
    >>>I am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that
    >>>I am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >>>
    >>> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't
    >>> want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I
    >>> seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble
    >>> with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I
    >>> want in the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because
    >>> I want to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays
    >>> correctly. I also want to be able to create the features found on all
    >>> but the most complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo
    >>> enlargement from thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client
    >>> wants something really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't
    >>> take the job.
    >>>
    >>> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >>> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    >>> publish the same way.
    >>> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >>> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    >>> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    >>> away.
    >>> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >>> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >>> over the browser and in the design view.
    >>> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    >>> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    >>> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >>> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    >>> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes
    >>> text on other pages that are finished.
    >>> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    >>> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>>
    >>> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    >>> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >>> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of
    >>> my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool
    >>> so far.
    >>>
    >>> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >>> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot
    >>> or link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >>> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >>> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >>> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    >>> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    >>> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>>
    >>> So,
    >>> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    >>> it learn what I need to know?
    >>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>>
    >>> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>>
    >>> Michael

    >>

    >



  8. #18
    Dave@Web by Design, Inc.
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    "It would be nice if NOF gave a warning message that what I am doing would
    expand the right margin."

    NOF 11 does that, and gives you an opportunity to resize.

    Dave




    "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    news:g2u5go$2m58@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >
    > "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    > news:g2seb2$pms6@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> Nothing conclusive so far after looking at your template (other than the
    >> overlapping objects on the home page). I went through your list of
    >> problems and tried to duplicate and/or discover a reason that you would
    >> be having a problem....nothing conclusive. I used NOF 10 with update #4
    >> applied for these tests.

    >
    > Update #4? I only see an update #3 on the downloads page and my NOF says
    > "no updates available"
    >>
    >> 1) As noted, overlapping objects would cause this. Didn't see anything
    >> else out of whack and everything previewed fine.

    >
    > Very strange. I have no red exclamation marks on my design page. I do
    > understand that overlapping objects cause problems, but I don't see any.
    > It occurred to me that there really are overlapping objects but there is
    > something wrong with my installation of NOF. I deleted and reinstalled
    > NOF last week (to update #3), but that didn't help. I am using Vista
    > though, which might be a difference. What is also strange is that the
    > page is now displaying perfectly, yet you show overlapping objects.
    >>
    >> 2) Took a couple of your tables and added/removed borders from Table
    >> Properties, CSS Properties, and Object Format panel and everything worked
    >> as expected.

    >
    > Yes I have it working now, but it took many hours to get there.
    >
    >>
    >> 3) Never saw this on any site or any version of NOF. Didn't see any sign
    >> of this while working on your site either. However, as mentioned in
    >> answer #1, you must be careful that objects don't overlap.....it would
    >> definitely cause your layout to go whacky.

    >
    > I think the issue was that I changed the CSS text style on another page
    > and somehow set a heading style to "nowrap". This threw off the layout on
    > the homepage. "nowrap" causes some big problems! .
    >
    >>
    >> 4) WYSIWYG tables have always been a challenge for NOF, however things
    >> are getting better (NOF 11 is the best yet). I'm not sure what "stay
    >> put" means to you, but if you have an example of that behavior we might
    >> be able to track it down. If it's a NOF problem we will report it. As
    >> mentioned in #2, I didn't see any border problems.

    >
    > I seem to have resolved the border problems in the template I sent you by
    > deleteing the table and starting over. Once again, I solved the problem,
    > but only with hours of wasted time.
    >
    >>
    >> 5) Where are you trying to make these text changes? That IS a confusing
    >> area for NOF users (and has been pointed out to WSP multiple times).
    >> There are just too many places that text attributes can be set. Sounds
    >> like you might have been changing them in the Site Style when you say
    >> that the text changed on other pages. You also mentioned that sometimes
    >> text attribute changes where ignored....they probably weren't ignored,
    >> they were probably being overridden in another area. SiteStyles, CSS, and
    >> Property Panels all get into the act and some take priority or others in
    >> certain cases. Again, if you have specifics we might be able to help.

    >
    > I think that is the issue. I make a change on the page that appears to be
    > ignored, but really what is happening is that the attributes are being
    > overridden somewhere else. I agree that NOF has too many places to set
    > text attributes and it gets really confusing. I am going to have to learn
    > how NOF sets priorities and try to adhere to their somewhat abscure
    > system.
    >
    >> 6) This one could also be caused by overlapping objects, or layouts
    >> unintentionally be put in masterborders. You have to be very careful when
    >> dragging objects around that you don't place them outside the intended
    >> layout area.

    >
    > I understand overlapping objects and masterborder issues, so that is not
    > my problem. It's when I insert or drag an object into another object or
    > layout area that is bigger than the space I have planned for it, it moves
    > out the right margin. Sometimes it is immediately obvious what has
    > happened (when a 750px page is suddenly 1200px), but othertimes it is
    > just a few pixels caused by outlines or borders. I don't notice it
    > immediately, but when I finish the page, it takes me a while figure out
    > where the problem is. It would be nice if NOF gave a warning message that
    > what I am doing would expand the right margin. Alternatively, it would be
    > nice if I could lock the right margin so that it expands down not right.
    > Sound like an enhancement request.
    >
    >>
    >> I don't know if any of this helped, but your template looks pretty solid
    >> from what I've seen so far.

    >
    > Thanks Dave. I think I am seeing what NOF's limitations are and what I
    > need to learn to use it effectively. I'll have a look at the tutorials
    > and the manual to see if I can figure it out how to layout pages that
    > cause less problem
    >
    >>
    >> Dave
    >> www.wbdi.net
    >>
    >>
    >> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have built
    >>>about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long time
    >>>(www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then I started
    >>>building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3 page sites, so I
    >>>developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of sites I built (for
    >>>clients), I became more ambitious in terms of size, graphics, and layout
    >>>(current site is www.nashcanspas.com, about 150 hours to get this far).
    >>>I am now so frustrated with how long it takes to build an NOF site, that
    >>>I am thinking of jumping to Dreamweaver.
    >>>
    >>> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I don't
    >>> want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic artist, I
    >>> seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I have no trouble
    >>> with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software making it do whatever I
    >>> want in the print world or the presentation world. I bought NOF because
    >>> I want to design in WYSIWYG and have NOF generate code that displays
    >>> correctly. I also want to be able to create the features found on all
    >>> but the most complicated sites (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo
    >>> enlargement from thumbnails, the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client
    >>> wants something really slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't
    >>> take the job.
    >>>
    >>> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >>> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't preview or
    >>> publish the same way.
    >>> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that I
    >>> don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in design
    >>> view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't make it go
    >>> away.
    >>> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page but
    >>> when I come back to the original page, objects are now splattered all
    >>> over the browser and in the design view.
    >>> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting columns or
    >>> rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders the way I want
    >>> them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word or Excel.
    >>> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the attributes I
    >>> am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the attribute, but changes
    >>> text on other pages that are finished.
    >>> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I have
    >>> to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>>
    >>> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I just
    >>> give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start all over
    >>> again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the site and 90% of
    >>> my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not a productivity tool
    >>> so far.
    >>>
    >>> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or three
    >>> before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template, screenshot
    >>> or link. I usually send them a template with the original ticket and
    >>> descibe the problem precisely. Then I get something back like "enable
    >>> CSS" when it was already enabled. Then two days later I get "use a
    >>> layout region" which didn't work, but they changed the ticket status to
    >>> "resolved." So after five days I have spent 40 hours trying to fix the
    >>> site and I still don't have an answer.
    >>>
    >>> So,
    >>> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to like it.
    >>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you recommend
    >>> it learn what I need to know?
    >>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>>
    >>> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>>
    >>> Michael

    >>

    >



  9. #19
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: Why am I having so much trouble with NOF? Advice please.

    Michael wrote:
    > Dave,
    >
    > That's really interesting. There are no red circles in my page design
    > view.


    that would hint to that you don't have a corrupted project but your
    NOF-installation is somehow screwed. or both..

    have you got the chance do compare with another computer of yours?

    Peter

    >
    > "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    > news:g2s6h2$pos1@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >> One thing I noticed as soon as I opened the Home Page in design mode,
    >> is that you have red circles (!) on two of you objects (text block
    >> Text121 and Table8). This indicates that the objects overlap and will
    >> definitely cause problem #1 from your list. I'll keep looking for
    >> other issues.....
    >>
    >> Dave
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >> news:g2rqa7$ndh5@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>> Dave,
    >>>
    >>> In a way I'm glad to hear that my problems are not typical. Good for
    >>> you, but still bad for me ;>). At least I am getting the impression
    >>> that I didn't pick the wrong product and my learning curve hasn't
    >>> been a total waste. I will send you a template. If you can spot any
    >>> poor design techniques, I would be grateful.
    >>>
    >>> Michael
    >>>
    >>> "Dave@Web by Design, Inc." <dave@nospam_wbdi.net> wrote in message
    >>> news:g2pbeg$fi71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>> I can say that your problems with NOF are not "normal". As Chuck and
    >>>> Pete indicated, there could be a number of usage issues going on.
    >>>> After we get some additional input from you, I know that there are
    >>>> people here, myself included, that would be willing to look at your
    >>>> site (send us a template), and perhaps we can spot some areas that
    >>>> might be causing you trouble. There's a lot of NOF knowledge on this
    >>>> board...don't give up too quickly.
    >>>>
    >>>> Dave
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> "Michael" <Michael_spamnot@bizsolver.com> wrote in message
    >>>> news:g2or6o$ds71@flsun90netnews01.netobjects.com.. .
    >>>>> I have been using NOF since v7.5 and am now using v10. I have
    >>>>> built about 10 sites. The first site I built for myself took a long
    >>>>> time (www.bizsolver.com). I thought that was learning curve. Then
    >>>>> I started building sites for clients. They were pretty simple 2-3
    >>>>> page sites, so I developed them fairly quickly. The last couple of
    >>>>> sites I built (for clients), I became more ambitious in terms of
    >>>>> size, graphics, and layout (current site is www.nashcanspas.com,
    >>>>> about 150 hours to get this far). I am now so frustrated with how
    >>>>> long it takes to build an NOF site, that I am thinking of jumping
    >>>>> to Dreamweaver.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> First, although I am reasonably technical, let me state that I
    >>>>> don't want to learn to code. Although I will never be a graphic
    >>>>> artist, I seem to be able to create what I need in PhotoImpact. I
    >>>>> have no trouble with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and DTP software
    >>>>> making it do whatever I want in the print world or the presentation
    >>>>> world. I bought NOF because I want to design in WYSIWYG and have
    >>>>> NOF generate code that displays correctly. I also want to be able
    >>>>> to create the features found on all but the most complicated sites
    >>>>> (photo galleries, e-commerce, photo enlargement from thumbnails,
    >>>>> the odd flash effect, etc.). If a client wants something really
    >>>>> slick in terms of design or graphics, I won't take the job.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Here are some of the problems I frequently encounter:
    >>>>> 1) I align everything in page view perfectly, but it doesn't
    >>>>> preview or publish the same way.
    >>>>> 2) I create a table and try it with a border. I later decide that
    >>>>> I don't want the border and set the width to zero. It goes away in
    >>>>> design view but continues to show in preview or publish and I can't
    >>>>> make it go away.
    >>>>> 3) I create a page and it is perfect. I go work on another page
    >>>>> but when I come back to the original page, objects are now
    >>>>> splattered all over the browser and in the design view.
    >>>>> 4) When I work with tables I have tons of difficulty getting
    >>>>> columns or rows to stay put. I also have trouble getting borders
    >>>>> the way I want them. I seems 10 times more complicated than in Word
    >>>>> or Excel.
    >>>>> 5) When working with text, sometimes NOF just ignores the
    >>>>> attributes I am trying to apply. Sometimes it accepts the
    >>>>> attribute, but changes text on other pages that are finished.
    >>>>> 6) The main page layout is constantly expanding to the right and I
    >>>>> have to resize objects and bring the right margin back.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> All of these problems take coutless hours to resolve. Sometimes I
    >>>>> just give up, delete the object (and sometimes the page) and start
    >>>>> all over again. I find I spend about 10% of time designing the
    >>>>> site and 90% of my time fixing broken objects. For me, NOF is not
    >>>>> a productivity tool so far.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> NOF tech support is rarely usefull. Usually it takes a day or
    >>>>> three before they get back to you. Then they ask for a template,
    >>>>> screenshot or link. I usually send them a template with the
    >>>>> original ticket and descibe the problem precisely. Then I get
    >>>>> something back like "enable CSS" when it was already enabled. Then
    >>>>> two days later I get "use a layout region" which didn't work, but
    >>>>> they changed the ticket status to "resolved." So after five days I
    >>>>> have spent 40 hours trying to fix the site and I still don't have
    >>>>> an answer.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So,
    >>>>> 1) Is NOF just that buggy? Professional web designers seem to
    >>>>> like it.
    >>>>> 2) Is it that I don't know how to use it? If so, how do you
    >>>>> recommend it learn what I need to know?
    >>>>> 3) Do I need to learn HTML?
    >>>>> 4) Is NOF the wrong product for me? Should I move to dreamweaver?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Sorry for the long post. You folks on the newsgroup are great.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Michael
    >>>>
    >>>

    >>

    >


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