Image positioning

[Graeme Davidson]

"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dnunsa$lhk5@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Graeme,

>Would you be able to post the html and the css you are using please? I
>assume the css is being generated by NOF.

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your interest.

I've got a couple zip files at http://www.davidlec2.plus.com/NOF/ which will
help. The NodFile one is the actual 1 page site .nod file I setup to
demonstrate the problem. All I did was create a new empty style, made the
body text Verdana and the font size for Normal Paragraph text a smaller
size. Then I made a few paragraphs of text on the homepage and the trouble
was immediately apparent when the site was previewed in IE.

You are correct that all code was produced by NOF, including the CSS so I've
not introduced anything that should have tripped it up )

Cheers!

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply

[Ted]

Hi Graeme,

Well at first glance I'm not sure why everyone is saying it's CSS since
the only css entry I can find is in style.css

BODY { font-family: Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif;}
P { font-size: xx-small;}

The html uses the statement class="TextObject" but I can't find any rule
for it. By the by I don't have NOF 9 so thanks for including the site in
a zip. I'll keep digging.

Regards
Ted


Graeme Davidson wrote:

>"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:dnunsa$lhk5@news01.netobjects.com...
>Hi Graeme,
>
>
>
>>Would you be able to post the html and the css you are using please? I
>>assume the css is being generated by NOF.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Ted,
>
>Thanks for your interest.
>
>I've got a couple zip files at http://www.davidlec2.plus.com/NOF/ which will
>help. The NodFile one is the actual 1 page site .nod file I setup to
>demonstrate the problem. All I did was create a new empty style, made the
>body text Verdana and the font size for Normal Paragraph text a smaller
>size. Then I made a few paragraphs of text on the homepage and the trouble
>was immediately apparent when the site was previewed in IE.
>
>You are correct that all code was produced by NOF, including the CSS so I've
>not introduced anything that should have tripped it up )
>
>Cheers!
>
>
>

[Graeme Davidson]

Hi Ted,

The problem remains without the NOF graphic, and with a breadcrumb type navbar too. However, it is more than just the navbar.... it's just the most obvious indicator things have gone wrong with the vertical padding cells.

I first discovered the problem when I had a long page with graphics interspersed between paragraphs of text in individual text frames. The space generated below each test-frame was too large and knocked the following graphic down by about 30 or 40 pixels at a time when published. By the time it got to the bottom of the page, the navbar was several screen fulls away from the last paragraph and the graphics were uncontrollably vertically displaced from the previous paragraph.
I wasn't too worried about the nav bar but the vertical over-spacing of the graphics was severe.

It's as if CSS text vertical spacing isn't being taken account of and some other default font size is being used to calculate the vertical spacing cells!

Since NOF support demonstrated the same problem, and bearing in mind that all the settings bar the body font and size are all defaults, I'm surprised others here aren't tripping over it - especially the trouble with lining up graphics against text!

Strange....

I'm tempted to go back to Dreamweaver again for the site in question but the navigation side of things is something I would miss too much! As you rightly point out, there is a trade off with standards and limited control of the code but I can live with for a while )

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dnv1io$lja9@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Graeme,

As you say the culprit is the nav bar. I just logged on to tell you what you already know :-)

The space is made up of a two row table in which the text nav bar sits on the lower cell and the upper cell is 171 px high.This should be driven by the css rule for TextNavBar, but this is not in the active styles. This is not the position in 8 but with 9 there is supposed to be greater integration of css. Also in the site style sxx's I can't find TextNavBar specified either.

Have you tried adding a breadcrumb trail? This in 8 used the same class statement, might be interesting. One other thing would be to remove the 'Made with' label and see if the program manages the layout any better.

I have to say that the site centric approach of NOF is a very good feature but there's a price to pay in terms of code size, standard and ease of external editing.

Regards
Ted



n0_sp4m to reply

[Ted]

Hi Graeme,

As you say the culprit is the nav bar. I just logged on to tell you what
you already know :-)

The space is made up of a two row table in which the text nav bar sits
on the lower cell and the upper cell is 171 px high.This should be
driven by the css rule for TextNavBar, but this is not in the active
styles. This is not the position in 8 but with 9 there is supposed to be
greater integration of css. Also in the site style sxx's I can't find
TextNavBar specified either.

Have you tried adding a breadcrumb trail? This in 8 used the same class
statement, might be interesting. One other thing would be to remove the
'Made with' label and see if the program manages the layout any better.

I have to say that the site centric approach of NOF is a very good
feature but there's a price to pay in terms of code size, standard and
ease of external editing.

Regards
Ted




Graeme Davidson wrote:

> /"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:dnuufc$ljv1@news01.netobjects.com...
> Hi Graeme,
>
> Well at first glance I'm not sure why everyone is saying it's CSS
> since the only css entry I can find is in style.css
>
> BODY { font-family: Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif;}
> P { font-size: xx-small;}
>
> The html uses the statement class="TextObject" but I can't find any
> rule for it. By the by I don't have NOF 9 so thanks for including the
> site in a zip. I'll keep digging./
>
> Hi Ted,
>
> Thanks for looking!
>
> It's not CSS itself that is to blame but it is certainly the trigger
> for NOF to miscalculate the size of the table cell it places at the
> bottom of the text frame to align the bottom navigation bar against.
> It throws in a height value waaaay too big for that cell ( If you
> don't use CSS, the problem goes away! It must surely be NOF not
> working out the size of text formatted with CSS and as a result making
> table padding cells the wrong size whilst it tries to maintain
> vertical alignment with other objects on the page. In NOF 9 itself,
> the "made with fusion" badge is actually in the same vertical position
> as the bottom text navbar.
>
> I normally use Dreamweaver but wanted NOF to do sites quickly,
> especially with the navigation side being looked after automatically.
> It's a shame this is, so far, my only major stumbling block with NOF.
>
> I'm wondering of NOF8 does the same?
>
> --
> Graeme Davidson
> www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk <http://www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk>
> Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply

[Graeme Davidson]

"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dnuufc$ljv1@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Graeme,

Well at first glance I'm not sure why everyone is saying it's CSS since the only css entry I can find is in style.css

BODY { font-family: Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif;}
P { font-size: xx-small;}

The html uses the statement class="TextObject" but I can't find any rule for it. By the by I don't have NOF 9 so thanks for including the site in a zip. I'll keep digging.

Hi Ted,

Thanks for looking!

It's not CSS itself that is to blame but it is certainly the trigger for NOF to miscalculate the size of the table cell it places at the bottom of the text frame to align the bottom navigation bar against. It throws in a height value waaaay too big for that cell ( If you don't use CSS, the problem goes away! It must surely be NOF not working out the size of text formatted with CSS and as a result making table padding cells the wrong size whilst it tries to maintain vertical alignment with other objects on the page. In NOF 9 itself, the "made with fusion" badge is actually in the same vertical position as the bottom text navbar.

I normally use Dreamweaver but wanted NOF to do sites quickly, especially with the navigation side being looked after automatically. It's a shame this is, so far, my only major stumbling block with NOF.

I'm wondering of NOF8 does the same?

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply

[Ted]

Hi Graeme,

Just an obvious thought, what about adding a specific css rule for
TextNavBar, TextObject and, given your description of the original
problem a default img.std class?

One thing is that many people here are upgraders from 8 to 9 and I think
that there's a key to this issue there. The NOD has to be processed but
I'd take a bet that the key element information is not amended,
therefore this problem may be most visible in new 9 sites.

Regards
Ted

Graeme Davidson wrote:

> Hi Ted,
>
> The problem remains without the NOF graphic, and with a breadcrumb
> type navbar too. However, it is more than just the navbar.... it's
> just the most obvious indicator things have gone wrong with the
> vertical padding cells.
>
> I first discovered the problem when I had a long page with graphics
> interspersed between paragraphs of text in individual text frames. The
> space generated below each test-frame was too large and knocked the
> following graphic down by about 30 or 40 pixels at a time when
> published. By the time it got to the bottom of the page, the navbar
> was several screen fulls away from the last paragraph and the graphics
> were uncontrollably vertically displaced from the previous paragraph.
> I wasn't too worried about the nav bar but the vertical over-spacing
> of the graphics was severe.
>
> It's as if CSS text vertical spacing isn't being taken account of and
> some other default font size is being used to calculate the vertical
> spacing cells!
>
> Since NOF support demonstrated the same problem, and bearing in mind
> that all the settings bar the body font and size are all defaults, I'm
> surprised others here aren't tripping over it - especially the trouble
> with lining up graphics against text!
>
> Strange....
>
> I'm tempted to go back to Dreamweaver again for the site in question
> but the navigation side of things is something I would miss too much!
> As you rightly point out, there is a trade off with standards and
> limited control of the code but I can live with for a while )
>
> --
> Graeme Davidson
> www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk <http://www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk>
> Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
>
> "Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com <mailto:traveller_ted@yahoo.com>>
> wrote in message news:dnv1io$lja9@news01.netobjects.com...
> Hi Graeme,
>
> As you say the culprit is the nav bar. I just logged on to tell
> you what you already know :-)
>
> The space is made up of a two row table in which the text nav bar
> sits on the lower cell and the upper cell is 171 px high.This
> should be driven by the css rule for TextNavBar, but this is not
> in the active styles. This is not the position in 8 but with 9
> there is supposed to be greater integration of css. Also in the
> site style sxx's I can't find TextNavBar specified either.
>
> Have you tried adding a breadcrumb trail? This in 8 used the same
> class statement, might be interesting. One other thing would be to
> remove the 'Made with' label and see if the program manages the
> layout any better.
>
> I have to say that the site centric approach of NOF is a very good
> feature but there's a price to pay in terms of code size, standard
> and ease of external editing.
>
> Regards
> Ted
>
>
>> n0_sp4m to reply
>

[Graeme Davidson]

Hi Ted,

Oops - posted before quality control check )

I meant to say....

I can work around it to a degree by deliberately putting the body content+images in a table. That fixes the vertical spacing of the actual content and images, but it does end up with the bottom navbar, or any other object outside that text-frame sharing the same published table column, not being correctly placed.

)

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
"Graeme Davidson" <gdavidson@n0_sp4m.davidlec.f9.co.uk> wrote in message news:do0rv3$m1i4@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Ted,

Thanks for the suggestion.

I now just tried that and was initially overridden by the Body text font size. So I removed the body text size css entry and applied a css text sizing style to the text frame and regrettably, it still has the same problem!

I think that just about nails the fact that NOF miscalculates css text size, considering that applying the CSS inline to the text frame produces the same problem.

It sure is a tenacious problem!

I can work around it to a degree putting everyting in a table and that fixes the sacing of the actual content, but it does end up in the navbar or any other object outside that table and sharing the same column will not be correctly placed.

You can see the remnants of the issue at the bottom of http://www.mackie.aberdeenshire.sch....ut_mackie.html where there is no way in NOF to remove that empty gap at the bottom. If I had used more than one text frame on that page the nav bar would have been several blank pages further down! Drat!

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:do0pi6$m1i3@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Graeme,

Understand, might still be some mileage in trying to add class styles to "text frames" to see if NOF 9 retains your css or defaults to it's 'tables R us' model.

Regards
Ted

Graeme Davidson wrote:
Hi Ted,

Good point about NOF users upgrading sites - all sorts of defaults may be set that NOF 9 doesn't generate. I did have 8, got cold feet as it was so different to Dreamweaver and ended up not using it. When 9 came out, it was an opportune moment for me to grasp the nettle and get my head around it by re-designing a FrontPage site from scratch as a learning incentive. The site is up (a school site) and looks not too shabby but have had to resort to fixed size fonts to minimize the problem.

Unfortunately, it's not specifically images either - even multiple vertically stacked text frames without any graphics involved get seriously out of alignment with each other once you put a few paragraphs inside the text frames themselves. I think I can generalise safely in saying that *any* object that needs to be placed below a text frame will get vertically displaced if NOF decides it should share the same autogenerated table column at the time of publishing.

I reckon the reason the "Built with NOF" logo appears in the correct position on my demo file is because it is not sharing the same column the text frame is and therefore not subject to the miscalculated padding cell heights.

[Graeme Davidson]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for the suggestion.

I now just tried that and was initially overridden by the Body text font size. So I removed the body text size css entry and applied a css text sizing style to the text frame and regrettably, it still has the same problem!

I think that just about nails the fact that NOF miscalculates css text size, considering that applying the CSS inline to the text frame produces the same problem.

It sure is a tenacious problem!

I can work around it to a degree putting everyting in a table and that fixes the sacing of the actual content, but it does end up in the navbar or any other object outside that table and sharing the same column will not be correctly placed.

You can see the remnants of the issue at the bottom of http://www.mackie.aberdeenshire.sch....ut_mackie.html where there is no way in NOF to remove that empty gap at the bottom. If I had used more than one text frame on that page the nav bar would have been several blank pages further down! Drat!

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:do0pi6$m1i3@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Graeme,

Understand, might still be some mileage in trying to add class styles to "text frames" to see if NOF 9 retains your css or defaults to it's 'tables R us' model.

Regards
Ted

Graeme Davidson wrote:
Hi Ted,

Good point about NOF users upgrading sites - all sorts of defaults may be set that NOF 9 doesn't generate. I did have 8, got cold feet as it was so different to Dreamweaver and ended up not using it. When 9 came out, it was an opportune moment for me to grasp the nettle and get my head around it by re-designing a FrontPage site from scratch as a learning incentive. The site is up (a school site) and looks not too shabby but have had to resort to fixed size fonts to minimize the problem.

Unfortunately, it's not specifically images either - even multiple vertically stacked text frames without any graphics involved get seriously out of alignment with each other once you put a few paragraphs inside the text frames themselves. I think I can generalise safely in saying that *any* object that needs to be placed below a text frame will get vertically displaced if NOF decides it should share the same autogenerated table column at the time of publishing.

I reckon the reason the "Built with NOF" logo appears in the correct position on my demo file is because it is not sharing the same column the text frame is and therefore not subject to the miscalculated padding cell heights.

[Ted]

Hi Graeme,

Understand, might still be some mileage in trying to add class styles to
"text frames" to see if NOF 9 retains your css or defaults to it's
'tables R us' model.

Regards
Ted

Graeme Davidson wrote:

> Hi Ted,
>
> Good point about NOF users upgrading sites - all sorts of defaults may
> be set that NOF 9 doesn't generate. I did have 8, got cold feet as it
> was so different to Dreamweaver and ended up not using it. When 9 came
> out, it was an opportune moment for me to grasp the nettle and get my
> head around it by re-designing a FrontPage site from scratch as a
> learning incentive. The site is up (a school site) and looks not too
> shabby but have had to resort to fixed size fonts to minimize the problem.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not specifically images either - even multiple
> vertically stacked text frames without any graphics involved get
> seriously out of alignment with each other once you put a few
> paragraphs inside the text frames themselves. I think I can generalise
> safely in saying that *any* object that needs to be placed below a
> text frame will get vertically displaced if NOF decides it should
> share the same autogenerated table column at the time of publishing.
>
> I reckon the reason the "Built with NOF" logo appears in the correct
> position on my demo file is because it is not sharing the same column
> the text frame is and therefore not subject to the miscalculated
> padding cell heights.
>
> --
> Graeme Davidson
> www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk <http://www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk>
> Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
>
> "Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com <mailto:traveller_ted@yahoo.com>>
> wrote in message news:dnvu6p$lpm2@news01.netobjects.com...
> Hi Graeme,
>
> Just an obvious thought, what about adding a specific css rule for
> TextNavBar, TextObject and, given your description of the original
> problem a default img.std class?
>
> One thing is that many people here are upgraders from 8 to 9 and I
> think that there's a key to this issue there. The NOD has to be
> processed but I'd take a bet that the key element information is
> not amended, therefore this problem may be most visible in new 9
> sites.
>

[Graeme Davidson]

Hi Ted,

Good point about NOF users upgrading sites - all sorts of defaults may be set that NOF 9 doesn't generate. I did have 8, got cold feet as it was so different to Dreamweaver and ended up not using it. When 9 came out, it was an opportune moment for me to grasp the nettle and get my head around it by re-designing a FrontPage site from scratch as a learning incentive. The site is up (a school site) and looks not too shabby but have had to resort to fixed size fonts to minimize the problem.

Unfortunately, it's not specifically images either - even multiple vertically stacked text frames without any graphics involved get seriously out of alignment with each other once you put a few paragraphs inside the text frames themselves. I think I can generalise safely in saying that *any* object that needs to be placed below a text frame will get vertically displaced if NOF decides it should share the same autogenerated table column at the time of publishing.

I reckon the reason the "Built with NOF" logo appears in the correct position on my demo file is because it is not sharing the same column the text frame is and therefore not subject to the miscalculated padding cell heights.

--
Graeme Davidson
www.davidsonelectronics.co.uk
Watch the spam trap - remove n0_sp4m to reply
"Ted" <traveller_ted@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dnvu6p$lpm2@news01.netobjects.com...
Hi Graeme,

Just an obvious thought, what about adding a specific css rule for TextNavBar, TextObject and, given your description of the original problem a default img.std class?

One thing is that many people here are upgraders from 8 to 9 and I think that there's a key to this issue there. The NOD has to be processed but I'd take a bet that the key element information is not amended, therefore this problem may be most visible in new 9 sites.