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Thread: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

  1. #41
    BigGreenFurryThing
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    <wistful>Ah, the Amiga. I still sometimes hanker for the simpler days of
    Deluxe Paint & Photon Paint.</wistful>

    --
    Mark
    www.BigGreenFurryThings.com


    "Chuck «BeyondFusion»" <supportno@spambeyondfusion.com> wrote in message
    news:dqbi3i$c6u5@news01.netobjects.com...
    > Mark,
    >
    > We still use CorelDraw. And a couple of Amigas too for that matter. (-;
    >
    > --
    > Chuck Joslin - Team NetObjects
    > BeyondFusion.com - Your Fusion Community
    > www.beyondfusion.com
    >
    > Fusion Wish List - www.beyondfusion.com/wish
    > Register domain names at www.awavedomains.com
    >
    > "BigGreenFurryThing" <admin@BigGreenFurryThing.com> wrote in message
    > news:dqb82a$c5n3@news01.netobjects.com...
    >>> (No, I don't work for Corel...)

    >> LOL.
    >>
    >> I started out with CorelDraw after moving from Amiga to Pc's. Interesting
    >> to note that no one in this thread has mentioned using it.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Mark
    >> www.BigGreenFurryThings.com
    >>

    >
    >




  2. #42
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    Allison Moore wrote:

    > > scripts/actions/macros ... in PSP is central to the

    >
    >> way I work.

    >
    >
    > So much of how we judge what makes a "good" application has to do with
    > how we individually process information. Can't tell you how many hours
    > I've wasted trying to work with WordPerfect (going all the way back to
    > v1 in DOS), yet WP works brilliantly for many people. I just don't get
    > the paradigm. If you have an app that's "central to the way you work",
    > don't waste your time trying to find something better -- because you
    > won't find anything.


    That's the truth. So I'll stay with WordPerfect - you said it:
    "brilliant - NetObjects Fusion, PhotoPaint, Corel Draw. And the rest
    of all the software world I only use out of professional reasons -
    because my job demands it.

    Peter

    >
    >> I could not consider using a graphics program without them, but I'm
    >> thinking in terms of photography.

    >
    >
    > For the kind of batch work you're talking about, you're right. Scripts
    > makes sense in that context. So far, although I've certainly used PSP
    > for fixing photos and other bitmaps (last week I used the clone tool to
    > remove text from an image, for example), and I think PSP's photo tools
    > are excellent, I've gotten faster and -- for my purposes -- better
    > results with some other tools.
    >
    > Xara's XPE is described as "Photo editing made simple." That pretty much
    > says it all. Either it does what you want it to do or it doesn't. I'm
    > sure you're happier with explicit tools where you feel you have more
    > detailed control.
    >
    >> I could also never work without layers again.

    >
    >
    > Who said anything about working without layers? I think I said that the
    > concept is different. Xara very definitely has layers. Rather than
    > raster layers and vector layers, you can put any combination of elements
    > on any layer. The two layer types that are different from others are the
    > Guides layer and any Background layers.
    >
    > While XPE doesn't have "layers" per se, it's non-destructive. You can
    > modify pretty much any aspect of the photo editing at any time without
    > disturbing any other aspect. Isn't that what you want a layer for
    > anyway? And it all happens instantaneously in real time.
    >
    > With any of these applications you're asking about, the only way you're
    > going to know if they'll work for you is to download a trial and give it
    > a whirl. That's particularly true of Xara, because it has so many
    > capabilities that other apps don't, and where a capability is similar,
    > it may be implemented differently so that it's faster, more efficient or
    > more powerful.
    >
    > Is Xara perfect? Of course not. Will it do everything? No, but sometimes
    > it surely feels as if it comes close.<g>
    >
    > BTW, take a look at the collage on the home page of my company's
    > website: www.metahealth.com. It was done in Xara. There are, I think,
    > half a dozen photos in it, maybe more. It's all editable, even now,
    > although I did destructively crop some of the photos down to just the
    > parts I needed because it was easier to work that way. I can easily
    > replace or modify any element at any time without affecting anything else.
    >
    > Allison
    >
    >



  3. #43
    Peter Eisenburger
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    BigGreenFurryThing wrote:
    >>(No, I don't work for Corel...)

    >
    > LOL.
    >
    > I started out with CorelDraw after moving from Amiga to Pc's. Interesting to
    > note that no one in this thread has mentioned using it.
    >


    I did, FurryThing. PhotoPaint - and though not mentioned explicitely
    CorelDraw. Both part of the same package. I was fond of Xara also, but
    can't afford to have them all.

    Peter

    --
    http://www.petereisenburger.de


  4. #44
    LWD
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    Hey, Charles,

    Well, that's what's so great about this forum - I can't imagine working
    without JAlbum for instance and I first read about it in a post by Johannes
    Thorvaldsen in a newsgroup here years ago.

    I had never heard of WinBatch, but it sounds to me as if that's something to
    use after the image manipulation. In PSP I can say, increase the contrast,
    decrease the saturation, sharpen, adjust the color balance, run a noise
    filter, despeckle, remove jpeg artifacts, etc. - all in one script which I
    can record and alter easily.

    Additionally, I can run the script 'silently' - i.e., with no
    intervention - or interactively - and it doesn't have to be run as a batch
    process. It can also batch and save to a specific folder within that
    script or as a separate script.

    I don't use it all the time since, clearly, not every photograph in a
    specific light situation needs exactly the same treatment, but if I have 200
    photos shot in a dimly lit warehouse with mixed fluorescent color
    temperatures, the way I work is to record a script which works well for an
    average photo in the group and batch the other 199 photos using it. It
    saves me, literally, hours of work.

    I can always fine tune after the batch processing if I'm not happy with the
    results for certain photos - or set up a different script for them.

    I haven't used PSP's slicing capabilities much, but I've always found they
    worked fine when I did - and it's always been a simple process.

    But I don't mean to emphasize just the batch processing, only that when I
    need it, I'm sure glad it's there for me.

    I do like keeping track of what I'm adjusting in an image and the history
    panel shows me every step and I can *selectively* undo - e.g., a step which
    I took 20 back - without undoing every step I've made since. Again, I don't
    know of any other program which can do that, but I'm still going through all
    of them carefully.

    And I'm still only talking about photo manipulation.

    When I've used PSP for straight drawing/painting/airbrushing, I find that I
    have an enormous range of brush types, tips, selection possibilities,
    adjustments available - an artist friend of mine who has painted for years
    can't get enough of PSP - and I can use a pressure tablet. I may be able to
    use one with other programs, haven't investigated that yet. I always use
    layers for any art.

    You used to be able to use all of Photoshop's filters in PSP but, as far as
    I know, this is no longer possible, which is a shame. There are
    nevertheless many out there which are excellent.

    As with Dreamweaver and Fusion, there's no question that PS CS2 is the
    industry standard for a good reason, but I swear that when I compare them
    feature by feature, I see very little difference - which doesn't mean I
    don't like some of the others I've been examining - which are, for the
    record, Acrylic, Fireworks, ULead PhotoImpact, Xara Xtreme, and Bibble Pro.
    I also downloaded RAW Shooter to compare it with PS and PSP's RAW
    processing.

    I figure I'll have the chart in about a week.

    L.



  5. #45
    LWD
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    Hi, Allison,

    Well, the website looks good, but sure, it would be nice if you could figure
    out a way to center it, I agree.

    The feature comparison chart will try to take in the differences between the
    programs, but I'm really only making it for a quick reference, so it may not
    have the detail that someone else would like, but that's what trial
    downloads are for - something I mention, by the way, since Xara only gives
    me 15 days as opposed to, say, Photoshop, which gives me 30.

    Photoshop and PSP similarity - yes - filters, actions, masks, channels,
    layers, brush adjustments, color temperature adjustments, tool presets,
    magic wand selector, all of the things I've mentioned several times.

    You're right - I didn't see anywhere in Xara Xtreme to batch process. The
    others will batch process to convert, say, tif to jpg, but won't run
    scripts/actions, or even run batch rename or resize processes (AFAIK so
    far).

    Word / WP - hmmm....I don't remember Word as being ill-behaved (in the sense
    of crashing or losing settings) but it depends on how you use it, I suppose.
    I don't like its mail merge, never use it 'out of the box' for instance,
    always use Access. I'll take a look at WordPro.

    Text/layers - PSP can do amazing things with vector layers and vector
    manipulation but I'm not saying it's up to what AI can do. The fact that
    you can import AI files without changing them to jpgs as other apps do is a
    nice feature, i.e, you work with them as vector files and send them back to
    AI still as vector files.

    > As far as layers and your mentioning using the clone tool to remove text,


    You mention that you do work with PSP - which version?

    Xara and layers - I'm still trying to figure that out, but I use them in PSP
    all the time, change their opacity, blending mode, order in the stack, etc.
    They give me tremendous flexibility and I always use them for text in
    images. What I don't quite understand is what 'XPE, its photo editing
    component which can operate as a standalone module' is. Is it part of Xara
    Xtreme? That's what I downloaded. I don't see anywhere to download XPE.

    Re the comparison chart being a checklist - where there seems to be
    something extra to explain about a program, it will be explained as best I
    can. For instance, Photoshop doesn't have its own 'browse' capability - it
    goes through Adobe Bridge. Why they set it up this way I don't understand,
    but 'officially' it can't browse, needs another program for this function.

    Etc. I will have to do it soon since several of the trials are limited to
    15 days.

    Lucian



  6. #46
    Charles Edmonds
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:40:30 -0600, LWD wrote:

    > So far, unless I've missed it, the others apps besides PS CS2 & PSP will
    > only convert file types via batch processing, for instance. Considering
    > that I shot 120 photos just this morning in identical light conditions then
    > wrote a script to batch process them, ran it, and delivered the photos to
    > the client a few hours later, yes, that confirms my personal need for that
    > feature. I would only have similar speed (to my knowledge, as I say, I'm
    > still investigating) with Photoshop.


    Lucian,

    With any of these programs (and any others) you could achieve whatever
    level of automation you want with WinBatch software added to the mix.

    I have a good friend who is in the icon business.

    She takes original designs of artwork (from any source such as PhotoShop or
    PaintShop - depending on what the artist used), then she brings it into
    Axilas Icon Workshop and creates six different sized icons, merges them
    into a file, auto-generates names, writes the output and zips them into
    archives ... all in WinBatch.

    The old manual process used to take hours, was tedious and prone to
    mistakes (just from the human factor). Once she set her scripts up - she
    has only to make a slight modification in a few places and "let 'er rip!"


    I am a big Xara fan of course - like Allison I just love it.

    BTW as she mentioned, there is full layer support (just easier than most)
    other than what is done in the photo editor component.

    You can also assign ID tags directly to portions of the graphic elements
    and have Xara do the image slicing and write HTML for you.

    We actually wrote a program to take the exported slices and samples and
    build libraries of images from them for a gallery builder product. In that
    product we called Xara for the automation (and again ran scripted
    keystrokes against it). It worked fine.

    Of course far be it from me to fall trap to the old "when all you have is a
    hammer - everything is a nail" syndrome<g>.

    I believe that most programs have their strengths and weaknesses - it is up
    to each of us to find the tools that work best for us and that suit our
    needs the most.

    ;-)

    Charles




    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Charles Edmonds
    cje_ByteMeSpammers_@lansrad.com (remove the _ByteMeSpammers_ to email me)

    www.ezround.com - "Round Corner HTML tables with matching Banners, Buttons
    and Forms!"
    www.lansrad.com - "Intelligent Solutions for Universal Problems"
    www.fotokiss.com - "World's Best Auction Photo Editor"
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  7. #47
    Allison Moore
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    > I see you've decided not to try to center your website for now. I imagine I
    > would have made the same decision if I couldn't eliminate that 'leap'.


    Sadly, you're right. I've gotten no further responses on the
    anchoring question or on the leaping issue, so I have to
    assume that there is no solution as things stand now. When I
    have to update the home page again in a few weeks, I'll try
    again.

    > out a feature comparison chart which I'll link to when it's ready for anyone
    > who's interested.


    Sounds good.

    > The programs whose feature sets I find most similar are Photoshop and PSP.
    > There's very little difference between them now (there used to be) other
    > than Photoshop's hefty price tag.


    I think that's accurate. The others are rather different
    animals.

    > So far, unless I've missed it, the others apps besides PS CS2 & PSP will
    > only convert file types via batch processing, for instance.


    Do you mean "don't convert via batch"? I'm not aware of any
    batch processing in Xara, for example.

    > I can do with my eyes shut in Word but am very happy I don't have to try.


    Me, too. I do understand Word's paradigm and I can work with
    it more easily than with WordPerfect. But Word is such an
    ill-behaved app that I prefer to use WordPro or something
    else if I have to use a wordprocessor instead Ventura (my
    DTP app).

    > As far as layers and your mentioning using the clone tool to remove text,
    > well, I never add text directly to an image for just that reason.


    About the only time I add text directly is when I'm cleaning
    up screen captures of our software. In this case, I needed
    to bump up the visibility of the word 'view' in the image at
    the top of the column on the right on the home page. Futzing
    with contrast and other settings improved the image in
    general, but I couldn't get far enough on that text. Since I
    didn't create the image, I don't have the source. So I used
    PSP to take out the word and replace the background, then
    dropped the text in again in Xara.

    > If Xara doesn't use layers...


    Ok, let me try again. Xara has layers. XPE, its photo
    editing component (which can operate as a standalone
    module), does not. Part of the reason you're not getting the
    idea here is that you don't do much with vectors. Another
    thing is that Xara and XPE do stuff other apps can't do. And
    you're right that you just have to try it.

    > I think the comparison chart should be quite interesting.


    Agreed. To be really useful, though, the comparison can't
    just be a checklist.

    Allison



  8. #48
    LWD
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    Hi, Allison,

    I see you've decided not to try to center your website for now. I imagine I
    would have made the same decision if I couldn't eliminate that 'leap'.

    I've downloaded all of the major graphics programs and have begun filling
    out a feature comparison chart which I'll link to when it's ready for anyone
    who's interested. I'm making the comparison for my own interest, but
    because I have always worked with PSP or Photoshop, I can't say I really
    knew much about what else is on the market, so I got curious.

    The programs whose feature sets I find most similar are Photoshop and PSP.
    There's very little difference between them now (there used to be) other
    than Photoshop's hefty price tag.

    So far, unless I've missed it, the others apps besides PS CS2 & PSP will
    only convert file types via batch processing, for instance. Considering
    that I shot 120 photos just this morning in identical light conditions then
    wrote a script to batch process them, ran it, and delivered the photos to
    the client a few hours later, yes, that confirms my personal need for that
    feature. I would only have similar speed (to my knowledge, as I say, I'm
    still investigating) with Photoshop.

    I understand about WordPerfect. If I have to, I can sorta get it to do what
    I can do with my eyes shut in Word but am very happy I don't have to try.

    As far as layers and your mentioning using the clone tool to remove text,
    well, I never add text directly to an image for just that reason. If Xara
    doesn't use layers yet you can "modify pretty much any aspect of the photo
    editing at any time without disturbing any other aspect", I don't quite
    understand how that's done, will have to investigate that on my trial copy
    here.

    Re 'explicit, detailed control' - yes, as a perfectionist, I have to have
    that. I'm often surprised at how many photographers pay no attention to
    depth of field, for instance, don't even know what it is. To me being able
    to control depth of field is a central factor in how I photograph and makes
    an enormous difference in the final image.

    I think the comparison chart should be quite interesting. Some of the apps
    won't let you view your open images in tabs, for instance, something I've
    been used to in PSP for years - plus being able to reorder the tabs to
    compare photos side by side. I had assumed that all present graphics
    applications would let you do that, but it's not the case.

    Lucian



  9. #49
    Allison Moore
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    > scripts/actions/macros ... in PSP is central to the
    > way I work.


    So much of how we judge what makes a "good" application has
    to do with how we individually process information. Can't
    tell you how many hours I've wasted trying to work with
    WordPerfect (going all the way back to v1 in DOS), yet WP
    works brilliantly for many people. I just don't get the
    paradigm. If you have an app that's "central to the way you
    work", don't waste your time trying to find something better
    -- because you won't find anything.

    > I could not consider using a graphics program without them, but
    > I'm thinking in terms of photography.


    For the kind of batch work you're talking about, you're
    right. Scripts makes sense in that context. So far, although
    I've certainly used PSP for fixing photos and other bitmaps
    (last week I used the clone tool to remove text from an
    image, for example), and I think PSP's photo tools are
    excellent, I've gotten faster and -- for my purposes --
    better results with some other tools.

    Xara's XPE is described as "Photo editing made simple." That
    pretty much says it all. Either it does what you want it to
    do or it doesn't. I'm sure you're happier with explicit
    tools where you feel you have more detailed control.

    > I could also never work without layers again.


    Who said anything about working without layers? I think I
    said that the concept is different. Xara very definitely has
    layers. Rather than raster layers and vector layers, you can
    put any combination of elements on any layer. The two layer
    types that are different from others are the Guides layer
    and any Background layers.

    While XPE doesn't have "layers" per se, it's
    non-destructive. You can modify pretty much any aspect of
    the photo editing at any time without disturbing any other
    aspect. Isn't that what you want a layer for anyway? And it
    all happens instantaneously in real time.

    With any of these applications you're asking about, the only
    way you're going to know if they'll work for you is to
    download a trial and give it a whirl. That's particularly
    true of Xara, because it has so many capabilities that other
    apps don't, and where a capability is similar, it may be
    implemented differently so that it's faster, more efficient
    or more powerful.

    Is Xara perfect? Of course not. Will it do everything? No,
    but sometimes it surely feels as if it comes close.<g>

    BTW, take a look at the collage on the home page of my
    company's website: www.metahealth.com. It was done in Xara.
    There are, I think, half a dozen photos in it, maybe more.
    It's all editable, even now, although I did destructively
    crop some of the photos down to just the parts I needed
    because it was easier to work that way. I can easily replace
    or modify any element at any time without affecting anything
    else.

    Allison



  10. #50
    Allison Moore
    Guest

    Default Re: OT: great deal on a good graphics program

    > Xara only gives
    > me 15 days as opposed to, say, Photoshop, which gives me 30.


    The change to 15 days with Xara is fairly recent, but I'm
    seeing shorter trial periods on many apps. That said,
    perhaps one reason for the difference between Xara and PS is
    that Xara is a lot less expensive. Because Xara has moved to
    open source, the boxed retail version is only $89 US, so
    there's much less risk to your wallet. <g>

    > You're right - I didn't see anywhere in Xara Xtreme to batch process.


    Although I think I've seen some references to developing
    batch capabilities for XPE, I'm not sure if they were merely
    requests for the functionality or an indication that batch
    was on the development list. IAC, that's really a function
    that's more appropriate to an app that's dedicated to photo
    editing.

    > Word / WP - hmmm....I don't remember Word as being ill-behaved (in the sense
    > of crashing or losing settings)


    Guess it depends on what you mean by "settings". Not too
    many crashes, but lots of other issues such as numbering
    schemes that reset themselves according to what Word wants
    rather than what I've specified; disappearing
    cross-references; ungodly formatting messes that may look ok
    on the surface but are impossible to edit without breaking
    things in other parts of the document; bullets that will
    align properly only when the entire section is retyped;
    table cells that won't realign properly after a single cell
    was accidentally dragged out of alignment -- and that's not
    even the tip of the iceberg. <g> And even when things are
    stable, there's the high number of keystrokes required to
    define a style so it typically takes me three times as long
    to design a document in Word as it does in WordPro and three
    to four times as long as in Ventura.

    > You mention that you do work with PSP - which version?


    Currently, we're on 10. I could probably have stopped
    upgrading as soon as we got guidelines, but some of the
    photo editing tools have come in handy on occasion. I still
    prefer PSP's red eye correction to most any other (not the
    new quickie version).

    > Xara and layers... change their opacity, blending mode, order in the stack, etc.


    Order in the stack will look familiar. Opacity and blending
    mode are handled at the object or group level, not the layer
    level. In Xara, those are characteristics of the
    Transparency tool. What you call "blending mode" is
    equivalent to Xara's "transparency type". PSP has more
    selections in this area. OTOH, Xara also offers
    "transparency shapes". BTW, Xara's Blend tool is something
    rather different.

    > I don't see anywhere to download XPE.


    It's bundled. Once Xtreme is installed, you can access XPE
    from your desktop or by doubleclicking a bitmap in Xara.

    > Photoshop doesn't have its own 'browse' capability... needs another program for this function.


    As does Xara. Frankly, I prefer it that way. I want Xara to
    stay lean and mean and fast. <g> For standard bitmaps, I
    normally use the viewer pane in my file manager anyway. And
    I prefer to open files by doubleclicking in the file manager
    because I can usually navigate faster that way than through
    the File Open dialog. Plus, if I want to browse thumbnails,
    I can do it in my file manager, in XnView or in IrfanView,
    depending on what suits my needs. And of course, I can have
    multiple browsers open simultaneously.

    Since Xara is not a common format, I use either a standalone
    shareware utility created by a Xara user, or I can browse
    the preview gifs for Xara files in either XnView or
    IrfanView. There's a plug-in for Windows Explorer, but I
    don't bother with it since I don't use WinExpl.

    I just estimated relative hard disk consumption for Xtreme
    and PSP. Right now, Xtreme is taking roughly 60mb total on
    my hard drive. A chunk of that is the plugins for the new
    Live Effects feature. It also includes about 12mb of
    TrueType fonts that I could easily dump or move elsewhere.
    By comparison, for PSP the top folder alone is just shy of
    58mb. Plus there's roughly another 111mb in ancillary files.
    Yet Xtreme is at least as powerful as PSP overall. It's
    certainly more versatile, although PSP has capabilities that
    are valuable in their own right.

    Allison



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